Dodesukaden: Did this kitchen need more cooks? (46 posts)

Kinema Junpo is hardly proof of Dodesukaden's acceptance, a Japanese film winning a reward from Kinejun is like a 3rd place win in a 4 film festival. Kinejun in the 70's was still a hard study into foreign films, and a critical one of Japanese, any film Kinejun was rewarding was from those that they felt broke away enough from it Japaneseness, and close into that of foreign methodology. The Pure Film Movement was still a goal of Kinema Junpo, and was rewarding films for being more Westernized, and not on the bases of it's success and acceptance in Japan.

If anything, I would suggest, a Dodesukaden win from Kinejun is proof of it's general negative reception in Japan. One simply follows the winner choices of Kinejun up to the 1990's to see how often they choose films that go against anything that resembles Japanese styling, many of those not well received locally.

After Japan established itself more global, then Kinema Junpo changed direction and started to promote the older Japanese styling of film making, to the point they cross over extremely, and declare Seven Samurai the greatest film ever. I believe now their focus is largely in anime that mixed western and Japanese traditions, with a primary focus on American films, if although their main stories are of whichever big budget Japanese film is approaching release.

Jeremy:

I know that the publication was very Western-oriented, but I never heard of this rationale before. However, most of the late-period films of the aging Yasujiro Ozu (than whom there could hardly be any director more Japanese, though he had been rather American-oriented in his youth) appeared on the lists, and two of them, 1949's Late Spring and 1951's Early Summer, topped the poll. These and other facts would seem to argue against your reading of Kinema Junpo's award decisions. Perhaps they wanted to protest against the movie's box-office failure, but not because they considered it "Western" (actually, I've never seen any Western film quite like it).

A poor means of explaining myself, I was regarding Japaneseness more in the sense of dramatic approaches nearing the theatrics of noh, and kabuki, and not a movie rid of Japanese elements. Ozu is indeed extremely Japanese, but his movies don't follow the traditional aspects of Japanese story telling, to say they are more western in approach, if although still completely Japanese in story.

The point being Kinema Junpo was often rewarding works that abandon traditional dramatics of Japanese storytelling, giving praises to the lack of traditional Japanese methods of storytelling, oppose to the actual movie's value. Of course this is a bit generic, and Ozu is always an exception of generics, to whom in this case transcended both non-traditional Japanese methods, with deep Japanese story line, both done perfection to had as great cinematic values.

If the argument is that Dodsukaden had good fanfare, simply based on a Kinema Junpo reward; I would beg reconsideration, as that often the choices for Kinema Junpo were not films that respond well to Japanese citizens- to whom still expected, and navigate to more traditional means of storytelling telling- but films that could be labeled nontraditional.
I would think especially so during the 1970s, when Japan went through it's most awkward phase of modernization in war with traditional practices, and by and large had the larger populist of none-urbanized Japanese responding more to tradition.

But I very well maybe wrong, it's fits with my tradition.

...Ozu is indeed extremely Japanese...

What the hell does that mean? Kurosawa is also extremely Japanese. Man, that is one tired argument that I thought we had put to bed already....
we have "traditional" and we have non-traditional, but to question Kurosawa's Japanese-ness is to invalidate any artist with an interest in culture outside of Japan-which means that only the most navel-gazing is Japanese? I repudiate, deny, and argue against such a narrow definition of Japan and "Japanese".

I love your posts, Jeremy and this isn't meant as a personal attack-it's my anger against the way that language slips out and continues to infect attitudes and thinking.

Let me give you an analogy: Everybody knows that Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel lying flat on his back...except, it isn't true. We actually have his drawings of the scaffolding and a self-portrait standing. We also have a poem he wrote comnplaining about how terrible the strain was on his back, and how he stumbled about looking up.

But, nevermind all that, people still believe he painted while lying down, because once that bit of crap was circulated it became more convincing than reality.

I think "Ozu is the most "Japanese" is pure blather. In any other culture we would describe conservativism as what it is and not give it the kind of ridiculous validation implied in saying "Ozu is the most Japanese filmmaker".

Sorry for the rant.

You like to make me cry don't you?
But you're right, although I wasn't making any suggestions that Kurosawa was less Japanese then anyone else or Ozu is more pure.

I was simply using extremely Japanese to sum up Ozu films being often deeper in Japanese customs. Kurosawa without at all suggesting being any lesser a Japanese, didn't have any films so deep in Japanese customs that anyone from any part of the world couldn't understand the film in majority. Ozu on the other hand wasn't always the case and has even been problematic for the more modernized Japanese.

I too for certain have never suggested Kurosawa's interest in other cultures, was a sign of his abandonment of being Japanese. While as well never coming to any conclusion Kurosawa was ever attempting to be anything other then Japanese. His interest and knowledge of a world outside Japan has made him the better director, and not gone to reduce any Japaneseness.

Still, I can't deny the error in using "more Japanese" or "Japaneseness" as a shortcut. If I can fight the power of my laziness, I'll use more accurate and correct means of expressing the difference in Ozu and Kurosawa without there being room to wrongly interrupt one being more pure then the other.

I must have been in a very protective mood about Kurosawa that day, Jeremy. I think the stinking AK100 mess put me in a bad frame of mind.

And, I am too lazy to take anyone to task without running the risk of getting called out myself! Generally, as you know, I have the highest opinion of your understanding of the many aspects of film and filmmaking, Jeremy.

I'm not seeking any means of an apology,not that I assume you were offering, everything you said is truth; I'm surprised I'm not called out more often for the garbage I write begin with.
And it's not as though I don't call out people myself, just on this forum, I try to be nice, plus everyone here while I can disagree with often, never post anything ridiculous(minus me perhaps). Elsewhere however I love calling out people, I'm known to resort to cussing, and name calling, as we all know the most reasonable and intelligent people cuss, and name call at the slightest provocation.

Jeremy,
So, back to the kitchen and cooks premise of this thread: I was for no more cooks. The dish Kurosawa served up was spicy enough for me, with enough varied flavors as to be memorable still, years after the initial viewing/tasting.

If, for example, the kitchen had provided a "progressive dinner" in which a cook prepared an appetizer, then another did the entree, another did a side dish, someone else provided dessert-that would have been less satisfying for me, because what I like, partly, is not the food itself as anisolated thing-it is the relationship of the cook to the food to the ambience to the progression of dishes...
in short, I am a big fan of the cook as director as auteur. That's probably my hero-worship Western upbringing. Geeky little first-generation American girl that read biographies of Michelangelo in bed as a kid, and went to sleep to dream about his accomplishments.

I'm a big Kurosawa fan. In work that is by its very nature collaborative, I like a strong personality and presence at the helm-or at the stove or whatever.

Having just watched Dodesukaden, this thread seems like the most appropriate place to note my thoughts.

My reaction was more like NoelCT's orignal one, sans the thoughts about turning the film into a collaboration. I agree with Coco that such an endeavor would only have succeeded in creating an even more diffuse and loosely-focused movie. Though it had an overarching setting and recurring characters, there was no overall story arc that unified the stories of the various characters into whose lives we glimpsed, unless you want to call the varying ways they dealt with their lot an overarching theme. You couldn't even say the overarching theme was despair, as not all the outcomes were bad;

Some of the acting and set decorating choices were difficult to get used to, particularly in the beginning. The oversaturated primary colors made it look, especially at first, like a live action PBS children's show, which to me conveys amateurishness. Rokuchan and his non-naturalistic style of acting was made me cringe at first until I got used to him. The fact that what he does amounts to mime didn't help. By the time he stops to scold the artist for sitting in the middle of the track, though, I had accepted his reality for my own.

The scenes with the beggar and his son were also hard to watch, in part because the execution of the appearance of the gate seemed hokey and contrived. The house seemed less so. I loved the scenes with just the son, and some of the scenes with the father and son were lovely and well-written; however, their whole arc was so heart-breaking and frustrating that it was painful to watch.

Probably my favorite scenes were those involving Tanba. He was almost an eminence grise floating above everything. In some ways, he reminded me of Kambei in his wisdom and acceptance of everything. (Probably in that respect he also resembles the lead in The Idiot, based on what little I remember of the novel.)

I would have liked more of Ryotaro's story; I almost felt like we never got enough context to figure out for ourselves what to think about the situation. I liked the scenes with Shima and his wife, though; I'm not as rude as she is (I hope!), but I rather enjoyed her dressing down the vegetable seller. Though he doesn't elaborate, I get his point that she's had to put up with a lot by staying with him, and I admire him for cutting her some slack as a result.

Also, the actor playing Kyota (Katsuko's uncle) was very good; I laughed at the anecdote from It is Wonderful to Create about the actor thinking that Kurosawa didn't like him because he kept glowering at him, and Kurosawa's explanation that he glowered at the actor because of the excellence of his portrayal of a despicable human being.

There were lots of memorable individual scenes, but on the whole, I found the movie too disparate and fragmented to be truly enjoyable or to rank in the top tier of Kurosawa films for me. Even the setting wasn't used fully in that there were no scenes of community other than the gathering of the women (all marginal characters who we don't see otherwise, with one or two exceptions) at the water pump. Maybe it's the translation, but the writing didn't feel as sharp to me as in his other movies either.

While the best parts of the movie were more enjoyable than, say, The Hidden Fortress, which I tend to think of as a well-made B/action movie with flashes of brilliance, the parts I disliked most, or which made me cringe, were harder to take than the fire dance in The Hidden Fortress, which for me is the pinnacle of cheese in Kurosawa's movies. Also, I found it hard to watch the entire movie in one sitting, and I'm not sure how I would have felt about it if I'd seen it in a movie theatre. I much prefer The Lower Depths (which I like better than many of the rest of you do), which has a smaller cast sharing living quarters, not just a scattered community, and an overarching theme (delusion vs. reality), over Dodesukaden.

Thanks for your thoughts, lawless!

The oversaturated primary colors made it look, especially at first, like a live action PBS children's show, which to me conveys amateurishness.

I can certainly understand you reaction here. The colours do take some getting used to, and I remember that my reaction was quite similar when I first saw the film. And I saw it from a washed-up VHS tape, not the new Criterion DVD.

I wonder if our reaction to the colours would have been different had we first seen Dodesukaden in 1970. Perhaps time (and the better quality of newer film stocks) hasn't been entirely kind to Kurosawa's colour experiment here, although I must say that over the years since my initial viewing of Dodesukaden, my problems with the colour palette have disappeared. I really love the new Criterion print and how it emphasised (compared to other prints I have seen) the colours.

the fire dance in The Hidden Fortress, which for me is the pinnacle of cheese in Kurosawa's movies

I think you have mentioned this before, so I may already have commented to it, but I find it interesting that you view the fire dance scene in this way. For me, it is one of the high points of The Hidden Fortress.

The fact that I'm not all that fond of primary colors probably contributes to my reaction here. I give mad props to Rokuchan's mother for putting up with his decorating the walls of the main room of their home with his drawings, because even by the end of the movie, that room was still too 'loud' and aggressively colorful for me.

Someone made that point about my reaction to fire dance in The Hidden Fortress before; it must have been you, though I don't recall offhand who it was. It may be the length of the scene and its portentousness that drives my response to it; I also think the montage of Mifune's Stray Dog character searching the rundown, 'bad' side of town for his missing gun lasts longer than is necessary -- a minority view in this company, I realize from previous discussions. The nightclub act in Drunken Angel doesn't bother me though, even though on many levels it is laughable, and thus also cringeworthy, because its laughable nature is part of the point.

My reaction was more like NoelCT's original one, sans the thoughts about turning the film into a collaboration.

Just to clarify, I never really thought one way or another that that would make for a better film, but given that they did all collaborate (largely successfully) on DORA-HEITA, I just wanted to raise the question and hear what others had to say. And, boy, you all had some fascinating stuff to say.

I pretty much agree with all of your comments Lawless, except the colors. It was Kurosawa's first time out the gate with this technique and I was fascinated with the pastel explosion he gave us. A little too much? Maybe. But quite striking nonetheless.

I think, though, that the general consensus from the others is that this is a film that grows with multiple viewings and, as my first and so far only time - as with Vili - was on a washed-out VHS, I'm very curious to give the DVD a viewing. Maybe I'll agree with the others that, instead of hurting the film, the disparate nature of the stories and themes is its true appeal. We'll see.

And I'm with Vili on the Fire Dance. It starts as a wonderful comical plot twist, then becomes one of those great Kurosawa moments where the characters just get to cut loose and have a bit of fun.

NoelCT saiys:

And I'm with Vili on the Fire Dance. It starts as a wonderful comical plot twist, then becomes one of those great Kurosawa moments where the characters just get to cut loose and have a bit of fun.

Me too! LOVE the fire dance, and love seeing Mifune in it! Just love the whole night of dancing and singing and the morning ashes being combed through in misty dawn light in the forest.

But, lawless, I' with you on The Lower Depths. It's a masterful, brilliant work! I cannot imagine how Donald Richie can complain that "The Idiot" is just the book, filmed, and not complain about "The Lower Depths" in the same way. I've said that before, so I better shut up.

Coco - Maybe Richie's issue has more to do with the transition from a novel, which can delve into a character's inner thoughts, to a film, which can't deal with such things equally as well? After all, The Lower Depths was a play first. Perhaps Richie wasn't surprised to see it transferred to the screen more or less intact, whereas he felt The Idiot needed to be adapted more to work as a film.

For some reason, the musical scenes in The Lower Depths amuse me a great deal.

You are probably right about the adaptation from novel v.s. play, lawless.

For some reason, the musical scenes in The Lower Depths amuse me a great deal.

I know what you mean, coco. Those final few minutes of LOWER DEPTHS are my absolute favorite final few minutes of any film. From the film's greatest high to its deepest low and BAM we're done.