Akira Kurosawa Forums » Tag: drunken angel

Akira Kurosawa Forums » Tag: drunken angel - Recent Posts http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Akira Kurosawa Forums » Tag: drunken angel - Recent Posts en Sun, 19 May 2013 18:41:16 +0000 Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: Sanada's song" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanadas-song#post-4055 Sun, 02 Dec 2012 07:14:23 +0000 Vili Maunula 4055@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Thanks, sudarshan! The name of the song helped me do some quick googling. If I understand the <a href="http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B8%AF%E3%81%8C%E8%A6%8B%E3%81%88%E3%82%8B%E4%B8%98">Japanese Wikipedia page</a> correctly, the song was a major hit for singer <a href="http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B9%B3%E9%87%8E%E6%84%9B%E5%AD%90">Aiko Hirano</a> in 1947, the year before Drunken Angel came out. <a href="http://duarbo.air-nifty.com/songs/2007/08/post_f597.html">This page</a> has the original Japanese lyrics, as well as some discussion of the song. I still don't know if it has any deeper meaning, but it's great to finally find the song, four and a half years after I originally posed the question! <img src='http://akirakurosawa.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':smile:' class='wp-smiley' /> Thanks again, sudarshan! Fred on "Drunken Angel: Sanada's song" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanadas-song#post-4050 Tue, 27 Nov 2012 06:18:51 +0000 Fred 4050@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Welcome here, Kevin. Great find, especially since the song is subtitled (even with furigana...)! sudarshan on "Drunken Angel: Sanada's song" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanadas-song#post-4048 Tue, 27 Nov 2012 05:56:39 +0000 sudarshan 4048@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ That song which Dr. Sanada sing is minato ga mieru oka 　(港が見える丘) <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7QIRmsWic4">港が見える丘</a> Vili Maunula on "Kurosawa on the catwalk" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kurosawa-on-the-catwalk#post-3898 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 20:13:39 +0000 Vili Maunula 3898@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Korean fashion designer Juun J.'s spring-summer 2013 menswear collection was apparently <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/film-noir-makes-a-fashion-comeback-for-juun-j/2012/06/29/gJQAsIHcBW_story.html">inspired by Kurosawa's Drunken Angel</a>. It's a little beyond me, though. Amnesty11 on "Drunken Angel: Jungle Boogie and other music" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-jungle-boogie-and-other-music#post-3730 Thu, 23 Feb 2012 06:47:55 +0000 Amnesty11 3730@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Thanks Benshi! Very cool. <img src='http://akirakurosawa.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt=':cool:' class='wp-smiley' /> Benshi Doug on "Drunken Angel: Jungle Boogie and other music" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-jungle-boogie-and-other-music#post-3718 Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:26:05 +0000 Benshi Doug 3718@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I'm sure Kurosawa used Shizuko Kasagi to boost ticket sales in Japan for Drunken Angel. By the way, FC Tokyo ( a soccer team in Tokyo) fans use Tokyo Boogie Woogie as a chant to support their team. You should be able to find some examples on Youtube. Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: Jungle Boogie and other music" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-jungle-boogie-and-other-music#post-3717 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 16:59:26 +0000 Vili Maunula 3717@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Very interesting indeed! I had no idea that she was such a big star. (And sorry Coco, the forum software doesn't allow iframes. For those too lazy to copy-paste, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPYxsKzKHYY">here is the link</a>.) cocoskyavitch on "Drunken Angel: Jungle Boogie and other music" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-jungle-boogie-and-other-music#post-3716 Tue, 14 Feb 2012 21:58:05 +0000 cocoskyavitch 3716@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Nice info, Benshi Doug! Thanks for that valuable insight! lawless, you and I get bonus points. And here is the Tokyo Boogie Woogie: <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BPYxsKzKHYY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> <img src='http://akirakurosawa.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=':wink:' class='wp-smiley' /> Benshi Doug on "Drunken Angel: Jungle Boogie and other music" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-jungle-boogie-and-other-music#post-3714 Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:45:30 +0000 Benshi Doug 3714@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ One of the most important facts that Donald Richie misses is the fact that the singer of "Jungle Boogie," in the movie, Shizuko Kasagi-was THE Megastar of Occupation Era Japan. The hit song that she recorded the year before this movie(1947), "Tokyo Boogie Woogie," was the representative song of the entire Occupation Era which was when this movie was made. Although personally I am not so impressed after talking with Japanese friends I understand more of its importance. Her singing style and body language were revolutionary for that time. The song symbolized the end of the war and hope for the future as a Japanese friend explained it. It was, of course, an example of the influence of American culture on Japan as well. It has been covered countless times since then and will be again in the future. I was very disappointed when Donald Richie didn't mention anything about her and her significance. I think many Americans have no knowledge of her at all. How important was the English invasion to American music in the 60's? (Yup, that important!) A search on Youtube for Tokyo Boogie Woogie in Japanese will give you 411 hits. dylanexpert on "Drunken Angel: the Sorensen documentary" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-the-sorensen-documentary#post-3340 Thu, 16 Jun 2011 01:48:08 +0000 dylanexpert 3340@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ If one accepts Sorensen's theory that, in depicting Okada's dress as progressively Western, Kurosawa was somehow criticizing the corrupting influence of Western values on the Japanese, the implication would be that Okada starts out as a good (Japanese-dressed) character and progressively becomes a bad (Western-dressed) character, whereas Okada is, in fact, depicted as a villain from the beginning, no matter what he wears. I also see no reason to believe Sorensen's claim that the yakuza wore Japanese dress in the late 1940s. A decade and a half before Drunken Angel, in Ozu's 1933 Dragnet Girl, the gangsters already wear Western clothes. (See <a href="http://www.a2pcinema.com/ozu-san/films/captures/dragnetgirl/2.jpg">here</a> and <a href="http://www.a2pcinema.com/ozu-san/films/captures/dragnetgirl/6.jpg">here</a>.) The detail of the clothing aside, Sorensen's theory goes against every published interview I've read about AK's attitude towards the Occupation and Western influence at that time. His attitude toward the Occupation may have changed later, though: the hero of Madadayo treats the occupying Westerners with weary contempt. Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel vs. Drunken Angel" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-vs-drunken-angel#post-3326 Thu, 02 Jun 2011 06:38:48 +0000 Vili Maunula 3326@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ <blockquote>Coco: One of the things anybody who has played around with sound and images notes is how sound can dramatically impact the feeling/mood/meaning of the visuals. And, another thing-so much music will "work". I'm not so surprised that the music in this worked-I am surprised how it made it seem as if Mifune's character was the "drunken angel" .</blockquote> My thoughts exactly! Then again, perhaps Mifune's character (Matsunaga) is something of a drunken angel. Shimura's Sanada may be the literal titular character, but there is certainly a case to be made that Matsunaga is just as intoxicated, and ultimately just as well-meaning character. In the end, Matsunaga even visually morphs into something like an angel, albeit one that hangs upside down and points downwards (one of the most striking visuals in any Kurosawa film, I would say). Ugetsu on "Drunken Angel vs. Drunken Angel" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-vs-drunken-angel#post-3324 Wed, 01 Jun 2011 19:19:23 +0000 Ugetsu 3324@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Its a great video and yes - it shows just how powerful good music is with good images. The selection of images is great. It hadn't occurred to me that the choice of images would give the impression that Mifune is the Drunken Angel, but yes, it does indeed. But no real harm there I think - Mifune is just a more 'visual' actor, so its inevitable that he is in so many stand out scenes. Among other things, this reminds me what a great little scene it is when he hangs that slipper up on the clothes horse. lawless on "Drunken Angel vs. Drunken Angel" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-vs-drunken-angel#post-3323 Wed, 01 Jun 2011 16:03:05 +0000 lawless 3323@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Vili - I liked the video as well and agree with Coco's assessment is how so much music works with clips from a particular movie, TV series, or the like. Although as Coco notes, the video gives the impression that Matsunaga is the drunken angel, in a sense he is; the movie makes him something of a shadowy double to Sanada as well as a contrast to him. Probably also the vidder found him more compelling for video clips; much of what's attractive about Sanada lies in the dialogue, which can't easily be replicated for a video. cocoskyavitch on "Drunken Angel vs. Drunken Angel" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-vs-drunken-angel#post-3321 Wed, 01 Jun 2011 13:39:43 +0000 cocoskyavitch 3321@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I enjoy reading the comments posted on the video site, Vili. It's always a delight when folks discover Kurosawa. One of the things anybody who has played around with sound and images notes is how sound can dramatically impact the feeling/mood/meaning of the visuals. And, another thing-so much music will "work". I'm not so surprised that the music in this worked-I am surprised how it made it seem as if Mifune's character was the "drunken angel" . Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel vs. Drunken Angel" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-vs-drunken-angel#post-3320 Tue, 31 May 2011 18:01:40 +0000 Vili Maunula 3320@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Somewhat related to our film club film of the month: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfCPkMDAe_E">Drunken Angel vs. Dunken Angel</a>. I didn't know such a song existed. Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: Yakuza, Social Structure, and Cross-Culturalism" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-yakuza-social-structure-and-cross-culturalism#post-3319 Sun, 29 May 2011 07:52:19 +0000 Vili Maunula 3319@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ <blockquote>Ugetsu: I was going to mention Scandinavia, but I was wondering if the prevalence of so much good Scandinavian crime fiction means there is something going on I don't know about... </blockquote> You are sort of on the right track there, I think. There is relatively little visible crime in Scandinavia, and there is quite little corruption, but there is also certainly something going on, on a social level. Within families, small towns, and other social groups. <blockquote>lawless: I don't know enough about Scandinavian (or Nordic) societies to have an opinion about their relative susceptibility to gangsterism, but your reference to the Russian mob rings true to me. If, as I suspect based on past history of Russian influence and even domination in Finland (not sure about Norway, and I doubt this applies to Denmark or Sweden), there's a sizeable Russian population and a steady stream of Russian immigrants, I would expect the Russian mob to root and flourish irrespective of local customs, laws, or social nets.</blockquote> There actually hasn't traditionally been a major Russian population in Finland, although ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union, more Russians (typically <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingrian_Finns">Ingrians</a>) have moved to Finland. Some 55,000 of them now apparently live in the country (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Finland#Ethnic_minorities_.26_languages">source</a>). lawless on "Drunken Angel: Yakuza, Social Structure, and Cross-Culturalism" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-yakuza-social-structure-and-cross-culturalism#post-3317 Sat, 28 May 2011 12:34:36 +0000 lawless 3317@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Ugetsu - Not all criminals are gangsters -- in fact, much crime is disorganized and solitary, not organized and group-oriented in nature -- so it's entirely possible for there to be a low incidence of gangsterism and yet for crime to be plentiful. I'm afraid, human nature being what it is (and it hasn't changed much over the millennia, it seems, nor do I expect it to), crime, including that which is exciting enough to write novels about, will always be with us. <img src='http://akirakurosawa.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_neutral.gif' alt=':neutral:' class='wp-smiley' /> I realize your comment may be at least partially joking or ironic, but I wanted to make the point anyway. Vili - I don't know enough about Scandinavian (or Nordic) societies to have an opinion about their relative susceptibility to gangsterism, but your reference to the Russian mob rings true to me. If, as I suspect based on past history of Russian influence and even domination in Finland (not sure about Norway, and I doubt this applies to Denmark or Sweden), there's a sizeable Russian population and a steady stream of Russian immigrants, I would expect the Russian mob to root and flourish irrespective of local customs, laws, or social nets. Certainly the Russian mob features in police procedural shows here in the US at least as often, if not more often, than the Mafia, and it's always depicted as extremely brutal and bloodthirsty and even more highly disciplined than the Mafia. Ugetsu on "Drunken Angel: Yakuza, Social Structure, and Cross-Culturalism" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-yakuza-social-structure-and-cross-culturalism#post-3315 Sat, 28 May 2011 10:34:21 +0000 Ugetsu 3315@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Vili <blockquote>I can think of another country type with relatively few gangsters or gangster-like organisations: countries with strong welfare systems, and I'm particularly thinking about Scandinavian countries here. The welfare safety net is so good that it takes a hell of a lot of effort for you to fall off of it. </blockquote> I was going to mention Scandinavia, but I was wondering if the prevalence of so much good <a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2293149/">Scandinavian crime fiction</a> means there is something going on I don't know about... Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: Yakuza, Social Structure, and Cross-Culturalism" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-yakuza-social-structure-and-cross-culturalism#post-3311 Fri, 27 May 2011 14:04:09 +0000 Vili Maunula 3311@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ <blockquote>Ugetsu: I recall a while back reading about an outbreak of gang violence in an English city which was blamed by the media on the police failing to clamp down on 'gangsters'. A criminologist wrote that the reason for the outbreak of violence was not police failure, but the exact opposite. They had been too successful in breaking up crime gangs, but in doing so, they also broke up the bonds that the gangs had with the regular community, so there was nobody around to stop idiot 19 year olds going around with guns shooting each other. </blockquote> That's quite a fascinating thesis! <blockquote>Ugetsu: You could argue that the only countries where gangsters don't thrive, are in totalitarian states where the government sees them as a direct competitor, rather than just a nuisance.</blockquote> I can think of another country type with relatively few gangsters or gangster-like organisations: countries with strong welfare systems, and I'm particularly thinking about Scandinavian countries here. The welfare safety net is so good that it takes a hell of a lot of effort for you to fall off of it. Or at least this used to be the case. There may be a slow change for the worse, however. The blame tends to be put on foreigners, especially the Russian mafia and immigrants. The Russian mafia, I suppose, finds these societies good places to do money laundering. Meanwhile, immigrants while still enjoying the benefits of the social security do nevertheless often end up marginalised, unable to find employment or much else to do, either. In their case, it is not financial deprivation but social deprivation (and the prejudices of the society around them) which may lead to criminal behaviour. lawless on "Drunken Angel: Yakuza, Social Structure, and Cross-Culturalism" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-yakuza-social-structure-and-cross-culturalism#post-3303 Tue, 24 May 2011 13:09:54 +0000 lawless 3303@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Ugetsu - You're right, her name is Nanae. I'm fascinated by the dress she wears the first time we see her. It's very striking and modern. While I don't think she's invested with as much agency as Sanada's patient, the barmaid (who acts on her own account), or even Miyo, seeing as she owes her position in life to men, she is, as you note, less a passive arm decoration than most. Her apartment is also interestingly decorated. I also found the Greek chorus of dance hall girls amusing, especially since they would probably gossip like that in real life, and his opening the movie with a brief view of a trio of pan pan girls, whom we never see again, intriguing. lawless on "Kurosawa and Noir" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kurosawa-and-noir#post-3302 Tue, 24 May 2011 13:03:07 +0000 lawless 3302@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ For what it's worth, according to Wikipedia, the first acknowledged film noirs were released in 1940 and films in the genre continued to be made through the end of the 1950s. Not surprisingly, M and The Blue Angel are listed as proto-noir. Ugetsu on "Drunken Angel: Yakuza, Social Structure, and Cross-Culturalism" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-yakuza-social-structure-and-cross-culturalism#post-3301 Tue, 24 May 2011 07:04:15 +0000 Ugetsu 3301@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Lawless <blockquote>and his dishy girlfriend and her apartment,</blockquote> She was called Nanae I think? I found her quite an interesting character. I think she stood out as gangsters molls are usually portrayed as quite passive, but what I found striking was that she was very much an enabler. She deliberately stoked up the rivalry between Matsunaga and Okada and seemed to be provoking them into greater violence (at least implicitly). She was both a prize for the gangsters, and an active participant and manipulator. lawless on "Drunken Angel: Yakuza, Social Structure, and Cross-Culturalism" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-yakuza-social-structure-and-cross-culturalism#post-3300 Tue, 24 May 2011 03:49:06 +0000 lawless 3300@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Ugetsu - My sense that the yakuza isn't some special snowflake but rather is pretty similar to gangster culture and practices around the world is part of the reason I raised the cross-cultural questions. They are definitely normalized; when the head of our local Mafia group at home, known as Fat Tony, died, people, including local political leaders, turned out for his funeral in droves. The man, now deceased, who as mayor had been responsible for a cleanup of the city, and later was a long-term Congressional representative, probably turned over in his grave. You're right about Kurosawa humanizing but not glorifying them. Mifune is a strong presence in Drunken Angel, although I find Shimura's character more interesting, but he's not someone you'd want to emulate. He looks wild and crazy when he's sick out of his mind, and his end isn't exactly desirable, either. Kurosawa's also honest about the benefits of the yakuza system; think of Matsunaga's little entourage and his dishy girlfriend and her apartment, or the privilege and freedom gangsters enjoyed in One Wonderful Sunday. Ugetsu on "Kurosawa and Noir" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kurosawa-and-noir#post-3299 Sun, 22 May 2011 23:26:26 +0000 Ugetsu 3299@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Vili <blockquote> I would consider the 1941 The Maltese Falcon by John Huston a noir film, Ugetsu.</blockquote> ooops, yes, sorry, I should have checked before posting, I thought the John Huston version was late 1930's, although in American terms 1941 is, I guess, still sort of pre-war... Vili Maunula on "Kurosawa and Noir" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kurosawa-and-noir#post-3298 Sun, 22 May 2011 18:05:01 +0000 Vili Maunula 3298@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Defining "film noir" seems just as slippery as the other things we have recently been trying to define. <img src='http://akirakurosawa.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':smile:' class='wp-smiley' /> You can define it by content, style or a number of other variables. I think lawless is right in asking whether the definition really matters, as long as we can more or less be on the same page about these things. Anyway, I have lived my short life under the assumption that the golden age of noir by and large corresponds with the war and the post-war world. When I mentioned people who escaped the war in Europe, I also meant those who left as early as the late 30s, and would therefore have been part of making films already at the turn of the 1940s. I would consider the 1941 The Maltese Falcon by John Huston a noir film, Ugetsu. I haven't seen the 1931 film, so if you were referring to that, I can't comment on it. I would agree with Ugetsu in that while Kurosawa's films have stylistic connections with noir, they don't really fully fit the definition. Or at least the definition that I have in my head as an abstract and largely unverbalised entity. For what it's worth though, the <a href="http://www.theyshootpictures.com/noirbydirector_K-M.htm">They Shot Dark Pictures, Didn't They?</a> list considers Drunken Angel, High and Low and Stray Dog as noir films. They don't make the top 250, though. Ugetsu on "Kurosawa's Trilogy of Duels" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kurosawas-trilogy-of-duels#post-3297 Sun, 22 May 2011 12:29:43 +0000 Ugetsu 3297@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Vili <blockquote>I think that it could be said that both The Quiet Duel and Stray Dog are about the problem of reintegration. </blockquote> This is a very good way to look at it. I hadn't seen that connection between them. Thinking about it, I think there is an argument to be made that all the post-war films, with the exception of Scandal and the Idiot, and up to Seven Samurai, deal with this issue up to a point. If you see both militarism, violence, and the psychological weight of war as a 'disease' to be dealt with by society, then I think pretty much all his films can be seen in this context. Drunken Angel of course used TB and the cesspool as a metaphor for something rotten that needed to be expunged. With Rashomon, the disease is 'guilt' and 'denial' (if you take the argument of <a href="http://akirakurosawa.info/2009/08/13/review-remaking-kurosawa/">Martinez</a>), while Seven Samurai dealt with the problem of the military itself (i.e. ronin) as I have<a href="http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/seven-samurai-the-art-of-war"> argued previously</a>. <blockquote>I'm working from memory here, but didn't Kurosawa express disappointment over the presentation of the film, considering it too clinical and technical, and not so much over its content or how it came across?</blockquote> Going from memory myself, i think this is partly right, but I seem to remember he also felt that people didn't 'get' the theme. Ugetsu on "Drunken Angel: Yakuza, Social Structure, and Cross-Culturalism" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-yakuza-social-structure-and-cross-culturalism#post-3296 Sun, 22 May 2011 12:17:28 +0000 Ugetsu 3296@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Incidentally, I would add that I think one of the most acute and least understood elements of Kurosawa's films featuring gangsters is how he quite deliberately humanizes them in a way which means we cannot admire them. Most films about gangsters either show them as evil characters to be blown away by the hero, or they drape them with a sort of outlaw romance. Or alternately they are used as metaphors for one purpose or another. Kurosawa I think addresses them directly for what they are - damaged marginalized individuals who use violence to achieve what they are incapable of achieving through other ways. Sometimes they are likable as individuals, but they can never be admired for what they stand for. And a constant theme of his films of course is that when a society allows gangsters to infiltrate, it is always a disaster. Ugetsu on "Drunken Angel: Yakuza, Social Structure, and Cross-Culturalism" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-yakuza-social-structure-and-cross-culturalism#post-3295 Sun, 22 May 2011 12:13:21 +0000 Ugetsu 3295@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Lawless <blockquote>Who they were and what they did was well-known in the community, although they weren't involved in anything worse than numbers running, gambling, and prostitution. But they aren't organized into businesses quite the same way as the yakuza are; their fronts are small, closely-held businesses. </blockquote> I don't think the Yakuza are as uniquely Japanese as they claim. I recall a while back reading about an outbreak of gang violence in an English city which was blamed by the media on the police failing to clamp down on 'gangsters'. A criminologist wrote that the reason for the outbreak of violence was not police failure, but the exact opposite. They had been too successful in breaking up crime gangs, but in doing so, they also broke up the bonds that the gangs had with the regular community, so there was nobody around to stop idiot 19 year olds going around with guns shooting each other. In other words, all successful gangs insinuate themselves into local communities in one way or another through doing 'good works'. At a lower level, they maintain order in their neighbourhood - making it plain that petty crime or vandalism is not acceptable where they live. A friend of mine, for example, lives in a small street in a rough part of Dublin, but nobody locks their doors or cars. A local hood (who my friend says is very charming and friendly) lives on the street, so local thieves simply know its too dangerous to go near the area. They ensure that violence is kept between gang members, and even then, its kept quiet (people simply disappear). With the mafia, they often use their wives as conduits for giving money to the Church or to charity, making them indispensable to legitimate local religious or voluntary groups. On a more organised level, they insinuate themselves into whole industries - notoriously with gambling, but also in waste disposal, retail, etc. This acts both to launder money, but also to insinuate themselves into society in a way that makes them very difficult to root out. If you look to the roots of gangsters, I think it is almost always marginalised peoples (poor immigrants, etc), who find that gangsterism is a way to gain respect and power. You could argue that the only countries where gangsters don't thrive, are in totalitarian states where the government sees them as a direct competitor, rather than just a nuisance. I was reading a while ago about the incredible ruthlessness shown by the Chinese communist party in eliminating Triad influence in Macau. They would not tolerate their presence in a way in which, say, a certain amount of mafia influence is vaguely tolerated in the US or Italy. This is a roundabout way of saying that I don't think its useful to look at the Yakuza as some sort of special Japanese organisation. They follow very much the pattern of gangsterism that can be identified in all sorts of societies, at different levels. I think the vague hints of samurai background are little different from Mafia groups giving themselves honorary or military titles (like 'captains'). Ugetsu on "Kurosawa and Noir" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kurosawa-and-noir#post-3294 Sun, 22 May 2011 11:57:56 +0000 Ugetsu 3294@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Vili <blockquote>Another important component of classic noir I think was its reaction to the atrocities of the second world war. I think that many of the noir films were either written or directed by European film makers who had been forced to flee to the US during the war, and it has been argued I think that they used the film medium to deal with what they had experienced.</blockquote> But didn't film noir start in the pre-war period? I've always thought of the Maltese Falcon as a 'perfect' film noir - but then again, I've just looked at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_film_noir">wikipedias list of film noir</a> and its not there. But I suppose that since it flowered in the immediate post war period then the general angst of the time must have been a big influence. Lawless <blockquote>So what is the Hollywood definition of noir? Does a movie have to be a Hollywood product to be traditional noir, as opposed to noirish, neo-noir, or noir influenced?</blockquote> I think there are as many definitions as there are films! I suppose if you take one of the more precise definitions then you can't have a Japanese film noir any more than you could have an Italian chanbura. They would qualify as 'tributes' to the genre more than parts of that genre. But I think its more interesting to look at the roots of film noir, and see how they extended outwards and influenced all sorts of films around the world. I would prefer to see Kurosawa's post war contemporary film as specifically Japanese films, but soaked in technique and style picked up from European and US roots. I think this would distinguish them from some of the <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056327/">new wave 1960's Japanese gangster films </a>which were also very Japanese but explicitly took their influences from US film noir. lawless on "Kurosawa and Noir" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kurosawa-and-noir#post-3293 Sat, 21 May 2011 07:06:03 +0000 lawless 3293@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ So what is the Hollywood definition of noir? Does a movie have to be a Hollywood product to be traditional noir, as opposed to noirish, neo-noir, or noir influenced? If not, would Fritz Lang's M (another favorite of mine) qualify as noir, or is it just straight-out German expressionism of the type that influenced and led to the invention of the noir style? Does any of this matter? (Possibly not other than as a matter of semantics, I'm afraid.) I know that The Maltese Falcon, The Postman Always Rings Twice,. and The Big Sleep (of which I've only seen the last) all qualify as noir. Body Heat strikes me as an example of a later neo-noir or a noir-influenced Hollywood film.