Akira Kurosawa Forums » Tag: drunken angel

Akira Kurosawa Forums » Tag: drunken angel - Recent Posts http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Akira Kurosawa Forums » Tag: drunken angel - Recent Posts en Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:20:12 +0000 cocoskyavitch on "Kagemusha: the Dream" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-the-dream#post-1744 Mon, 08 Jun 2009 13:47:03 +0000 cocoskyavitch 1744@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Can't wait until our friends start posting their reactions to your query, Vili. The dream sequence in Kagemusha has the lurid colors of Dodeskaden, shares the dramatic impulse of the main character, doppelgänger and pursuit as Drunken Angel and shows a sunset not unlike that in Madadayo but has a repetitive, numbing action that I cannot really relate to any other Kurosawa film. I don't think it has anything in particular to do with Dreams in the "design" of the action, which is largely a bunch of floundering around on a very clearly artificial set. The floundering is intentional, I believe. The artifice makes us think that the "space' where the action occurs is very different from the "space" of the rest of the film. I suggest that it is an interior space-the physical manifestation of the interior struggle of the thief (well, that may be quite self-evident, so let me mock myself here; "Doh"!). In literature relevant to the atomic bomb, Erik H. Erikson defines in Youth and Crisis the nature of crisis as a turning point: <blockquote>It may be a good thing that the word "crisis" no longer connotes impending catastrophe, which at one time seemed to be an obstacle to understanding the term. It is now being accepted as designating a necessary turning point, a crucial moment, when development must move one way or another, marshaling resources of growth, recovery and further differentiation. This proves applicable to many situations: a crisis in individual development or in the emergence of a new elite, in the therapy of an individual or in the tensions of rapid historical change. </blockquote> The thief is in crisis-he is about to accept the role of Lord Shingen-but the nuances of accepting the identity of another-the ungraspability of it-the elusive nature of self-these disturbing, troubling and largely unanswerable questions torture him. He pursues Shingen while being deathly (and I use the term pointedly) afraid of him, of losing himself, of Shingen himself and his role, and of the death of self as well. All of these emotions are done in dumb show-it is like Noh theatre for the generation raised on film-like Noh with a rock soundtrack (I am using "rock" to indicate visual equivalents, not the actual sound) and set design courtesy of Abstract Expressionism. The death of self in service to a greater goal is what the thief eventually embraces, but the fear of this leap of faith is made concrete in the dream sequence. What does it have to do with the sunset in Madadayo? I guess nothing and everything. I always think that part of what Kurosawa is saying in Kagemusha is that we all wear masks-social obligations, our roles in work, our home life, even-and these masks we wear make us all actors impersonating a "self". In Kagemusha there is considerable anxiety about the wearing of the mask, fear of exposing the truth, and fear of loss of "self'. It is a film about anxiety on a personal level, and i have always felt it has autobiographic "vibrations"-I am reluctant to say that it directly relates to Kurosawa's life or is a veiled attempt to explore his life-I would rather think that the troubles Kurosawa had experienced in relation to Dodeskaden and the suicide attempt had reverberations that had an impact on the stories he told after. Whether or not you believe that an Hispanic woman will make a "better" choice on the supreme court than her white male counterparts (nudge, nudge, judge Sotomayor) I am certain that you have no doubt that her experience will inform her decisions ot some degree. Same principle here: the stories Kurosawa is telling have some "reverberation" in his own life. One must tread cautiously to go farther than that. In Madadayo there is no longer any fear about dreams-they are the great solace and gift of Kurosawa's/the professor's life, and he embraces his gift-even retrospectively-to see, in his dream, as a child, that siren song he heard, that beauty that he saw-that separated him from the rest of his friends. He enters into that beauty with gratitude in the end. Vili Maunula on "Kagemusha: the Dream" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-the-dream#post-1741 Sun, 07 Jun 2009 17:48:26 +0000 Vili Maunula 1741@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ The dream sequence in Kagemusha is interestingly similar to the one found in Drunken Angel, which we <a href="http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-the-dream-sequence">discussed last year</a>. In both cases the main character is basically being chased or threatened by his dead doppelgänger. Yet, the dream in Kagemusha seems in many ways more complex, not least because you now have the added complexity that in addition to the Kagemusha himself, the doppelgänger may also represent Lord Shingen. What do you make of the dream in Kagemusha? What do you think of the setting? In what ways do you think Kagemusha's dream relates to the one Matsunaga has in Drunken Angel? And how do you think these dreams are connected to the dreams depicted in Dreams, or the one that concludes Madadayo? If at all? Perhaps also worth noting is that Kurosawa has pointed out that the dream in Kagemusha was autobiographical, if not in content at least in its presentation: <blockquote>In the dream scene we see that what the double is undergoing is as painful as being crucified. He has to chase after the original yet feels pursued by him. He is struggling with his own identity in that dream. The reason for the sets appearing the way they do is because I myself often have dreams in brilliant, almost painfully bright, colors like that -- and I felt that at that point the double must be experiencing the same kind of painful dreams that I do. (Kurosawa quoted in <a href="http://akirakurosawa.info/books-on-akira-kurosawa-movies/#cardullo">Cardullo</a>, 73) </blockquote> Vili Maunula on "Kurosawa and theatre" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kurosawa-and-theatre#post-1310 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:12:55 +0000 Vili Maunula 1310@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ A small update. Kurosawa has this to say about Shaberu in the two-hour discussion with Nagisa Oshima filmed in 1993, and included on disc 3 of Criterion's Seven Samurai box set: <blockquote>During the war, the Japanese couldn't speak their minds, and the play is about everyone suddenly speaking freely. It takes place at a fish dealer's house. He was a staunch Tojo worshipper, and he'd been a family tyrant. But now the war is over, his family can finally confront him, and they shower him with all their pent-up grievances. Well, the GHQ summoned me because of the play. An American theater professional at the GHQ liked the play and wanted to know how each scene would be played. In ways like this, the GHQ made a great effort to rebuild Japan.</blockquote> This is at around 50 minutes. Fabien on "Drunken Angel: Sanada's song" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanadas-song#post-746 Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:05:39 +0000 Fabien 746@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Any news on the song? I was wondering also about this one. And I watched recently The Most Beautiful, during which a patriotic song is often sung, and presented as the Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: Changing the season" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-changing-the-season#post-664 Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:58:15 +0000 Vili Maunula 664@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ <blockquote>I dont know how Kurosawa shot his films, nor the production time frames.</blockquote> According to <a href="http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0571211526/ref=nosim/languagnewsfo-20">Galbraith</a> (94-95), preproduction for Drunken Angel started in November 1947, and shooting the film began later that month. Despite of Toho's pressure to hurry up the release of the film, the shoot stretched all the way to March 10, 1948 due to several small problems that the production had to endure. I have no idea about what sequence the film was shot in, and although I doubt that it was shot in sequence (like Jeremy says, very few films are), given that Kurosawa's father died on February 8th and Kurosawa in his <a href="http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394714393/ref=nosim/languagnewsfo-20">biography</a> (162-163) remarks that it was his death that inspired the Cuckoo Waltz scene, they seemed to be dealing at least with that late scene so late into the production. Or, perhaps the scene was already shot but the music still to be decided? Jeremy Quintanilla on "Drunken Angel: Changing the season" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-changing-the-season#post-663 Sun, 29 Jun 2008 02:56:40 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 663@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Yeah, great observation. I never noticed anything at all. I dont know how Kurosawa shot his films, nor the production time frames. Typical smart directing will make the hardest scene in the first week of filming and the easier scenes at the last part of filming. Idea is that everyone will have more energy early on, and worn out towards the end. So save the easy for the last, because you cant expect to get much out of anybody. Giving some of the scenes that the 56:20 mark, require intense directing and acting. I dont think it would be wise to shoot in sequence, plus that has always been a rare method. So perhaps it is to show a change in mood. It seems like something no one could answer, but the ones that were there. I don't understand Japanese most expressions, and have no idea if there is a meaning behind those words. My Japanese is on par with a little kid(given myself too much credit there), I dont even know what he is saying to be able to write it out and maybe search a bit. ---It is very interesting the chosen subtitles. There has be someone that is native Japanese or highly fluent in Japanese that lurks this site. Jeremy Quintanilla on "Drunken Angel: Sanada, an angel at the lower depths" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanada-an-angel-in-the-lower-depths#post-662 Sun, 29 Jun 2008 02:37:23 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 662@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Just got the chance to read everything, it's all fantastic. For me it's a mixture of the two viewpoint presented here. I see many things that suggest Matsunaga is redeemed and his death should be celebrated(although I agree a parade is a bit too much), but indeed he is all caught up in the "saving face" thing, that he does completely waste his life for stupidity and false ideals. Simply just quitting, is too clean, too unnatural. Continuing on, is again too simple and clean. To avoid a black and white, Kurosawa gives us a large gray area. Matsunaga knowingly self-destructs, he badly wants to renew himself, but he simply is overwhelmed with current life. This is realistic and truthful of many people. Regardless how bad they wish to change their ways, they simple will not for a large variety of reasons. I often wish I could go back to the past, knowing what I know now, and correct many things I did wrong. However I know myself too well, and have a strong feeling, that no matter what, I would only repeat the very mistakes I regret. This to me, is the very core of the Matsunaga problem, a very realistic battle. Perhaps movie wise it can be a bit weak as we often wish for a solid answer, but reality often refuse to give one. . Interesting the "Human sacrifice has gone out of style. Japanese make so many pointless sacrifices." quote. I dabble a bit in Japanese, but I'm at no point in a position to declare what is correct and what is wrong. I am after all, just a white kid from Texas. <img src='http://akirakurosawa.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':smile:' class='wp-smiley' /> As Vili mentions, Sanda uses the term nipponjin, rather then nihonjin. "Jin" meaning "person" and the Nippon and Nihon is the Japanese word for the country of Japan. From my understanding, 95% of the time the use of Nihon and Nihonjin is the correct way of referring to Japan and to a Japanese. The only occasion for the use of Nippon is to show extreme pride and honor. For example a Japanese would nearly always use "Nihon", but say in the Olympics they would more then likely use the word "Nippon". Also during WWII, the term Nippon was used exclusively when the Japanese mentioned Japan. (It's where the derogatory word "Nip" came from, when American's first learned of this). Now of days, I doubt you would ever hear anything other then "Nihon"(but with the Olympics coming, I'm sure news casters with use Nippon when talking of the events). Anyways, to me it could simply be old habits. Giving that the war ended not long ago, the exclusive use of "Nipponjin" could still be in effect, or it's just habit. Then again perhaps, Sanada wish to instill honor to the Japanese, while still being critical of their ways. So basically I dont know, it could be what Vili mentioned, what I mentioned, or something entirely different, and lets not forget it could me nothing at all. It is still rather interesting. Jon Hooper on "Drunken Angel: Changing the season" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-changing-the-season#post-661 Sat, 28 Jun 2008 19:07:29 +0000 Jon Hooper 661@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Sharply oberved, Vili. To be quite honest I hadn't noticed the change at all and so thanks for pointing it out. Without going back and looking at it again, the only thing I can offer is the obvious - that Kurosawa is playing on the tradition of equating human life with the turning of the seasons. Autumn and winter meaning decay and death. Something similar can be observed in Seven Samurai, with its metaphors drawn from farming. As you say, this does not account for the abrupt jump in narrative chronology. I do not speak Japanese so I can't say whether the Japanese equivalent of "cool it" used at that point contains the same metaphorical meaning. Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: Changing the season" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-changing-the-season#post-660 Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:11:44 +0000 Vili Maunula 660@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Around the 56:20 mark the season in Drunken Angel changes from summer heat to autumn or winter. Why does the film do this? The characters at least appear not to have made any progress during this time, although I would imagine that at least a few weeks are needed for the temperature to drop that sharply. In fact, for a long time I completely missed the change of the season and the apparent jump forward in time, and simply kept wondering why everyone was suddenly so dressed-up. I know that the film was actually shot in January, so perhaps they were hit by a cold period and had to adapt the story accordingly. But I doubt that this is the case, because it would mean that the film was shot in sequence, plus there aren't all that many exterior scenes in the last half an hour that would force this change. We could also approach the change of season by considering Kurosawa's somewhat simplistic (not necessarily in a bad way, though) metaphorical use of the weather to mark his characters' moods and feelings. There is certainly something cold that has taken hold of Matsunaga at this point. But to (clumsily) jump forward in time simply in order to mirror Matsunaga's suffering in the weather would seem like stretching the narrative chronology way too much, so I don't think that this is it, either. Perhaps something was cut out? It would be very interesting to see the original script. In any case, does anyone know, or can anyone think of a possible reason why the season changes? Am I missing something here? On a related note, can anyone make out what Matsunaga actually shouts to the poor boy who happens on his way when he storms out of Sanada's practice right before the seasons change. The subtitles read "Hey, better cool it! Jerk!", which seems to fit the place perfectly, and perhaps is there exactly to prepare us mentally for the change of the season. But I'm not familiar with the Japanese expression used, so it may just be the subtitles. Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: Sanada, an angel at the lower depths" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanada-an-angel-in-the-lower-depths#post-658 Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:31:09 +0000 Vili Maunula 658@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I think Yippee has a point in that the two contradictory types of endings (Matsunaga the angel and Matsunaga the fool) could well be seen to co-exit simultaneously. Seven Samurai is, indeed, a very good example of such an ending. But here, nevertheless, is another interpretation to consider. Note, how the whole death scene involves Matsunaga alone. Why is Okada suddenly not interested in pursuing him? And where are all those by-standers who were curious about the fight until the two burst out into the hallway? Surely, the portrayal of Matsunaga dying alone is a small mistake in realistic storytelling? I mean, give us Okada madly rushing after him, and a few peeping Toms at least! Of course, this could well be a cinematic device to heighten the impact of Matsunaga's death. And I won't argue against that. But note also how the almost cathartic music kicks in the very moment when Okada stabs him and then falls out of the screen leaving Matsunaga alone, and how it is only after that when everything suddenly becomes white, or very angelic indeed. Since there is no one else witnessing this death -- had Kurosawa wanted realism, he could at least have included someone on a nearby balcony -- one could perhaps argue that what takes place on the gallery is actually no more taking place in reality, but rather within Matsunaga. This is the way he himself interprets his death, seeing his actions as something heroic, something worthy of his death, something in which he is totally alone. A yakuza's death. This would then go on to justify the urgent need for the "coda", which functions as serving us the more realistic view of Matsunaga's death, or in other words stressing its total pointlessness and contrasting it with the young girl who survives and is happy even in the sump. It is as if the film would be saying -- look, here is the cinematic ending for a yakuza, but here is the reality, and it is the reality that we should really be dealing with. I don't want to suggest that this is necessarily what Kurosawa means with the ending (simply because I am not really more interested in what Kurosawa thought that he intended than, for example, what Jon thinks that Kurosawa intended), but it would seem to fit with his idea of showing the young post-war Japanese that the yakuza way of life is not what it is made to be. Or at least <a href="http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520220374/ref=nosim/languagnewsfo-20">Richie</a> quotes Kurosawa as saying that he made Drunken Angel "to denounce the way of gangsters, and to show how silly they are as human beings". (49) <blockquote>"Human sacrifice has gone out of style. Japanese make so many pointless sacrifices." </blockquote> Regarding the "pointless sacrifices" quote, I just re-watched the scene and Sanada does indeed specifically say that Japanese make those sacrifices, which does make the statement more loaded considering the time and place in which it is uttered. Well spotted, Yippee! Interestingly, Sanada here actually uses the word nipponjin rather than the more common nihonjin. I may be reading too much into this, but nippon is not only the more formal of the two possible pronunciations of the country's name, but in the Japanese sound system it also has a harsher, less gentle sound to it. Anyone familiar with the language probably knows the extent to which sounds appear to have specific metaphorical meaning for the Japanese, so perhaps there is something to this. Jeremy's Japanese is better than mine -- what would you say, Jeremy? yippee on "Drunken Angel: Sanada, an angel at the lower depths" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanada-an-angel-in-the-lower-depths#post-657 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:06:48 +0000 yippee 657@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ The two convincing arguments forwarded explore the complexity that makes Kurosawa's films fascinating. Both theories are more than plausible! Matsunaga redeemed, Matsunaga's life wasted. Can it be both at the same time? That's how I think Kurosawa's films often end. Both things at once. You know, when in Seven Samurai, the battle was clearly lost by the bad guys, but Shimura says, "We've lost again." If it is a matter of degree (specific battle v.s. way of life) to what degree is Matsunaga's redemption true? To what degree is his failure? On another note: From Vili's argument: <blockquote>To quote Sanada again, "Human sacrifice has gone out of style. Japanese make so many pointless sacrifices." Matsunaga's "sacrifice", to me, is an epitome of a pointless death. </blockquote> My question: Are we sure the subtitles are pretty accurate? I mean, does Sanada say, "Japanese make so many pointless sacrifices." ? How interesting! Would I say, "Americans only care about personal gain." ? Criticizing one's own culture--does it imply someone outside that culture is watching or listening? (I am thinking about how Kurosawa is thought of as "not Japanese enough") Or is it the big view that sees "Japanese" or "American" ? Jon Hooper on "Drunken Angel: Sanada - what's in a name?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanada-whats-in-a-name#post-656 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:59:02 +0000 Jon Hooper 656@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I've been ploughing through some of those New Age websites and must say I'm more confused than when I started. I agree with Jeremy - unless we find a Japanese Vili we're stumped. Jon Hooper on "Drunken Angel: Sanada, an angel at the lower depths" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanada-an-angel-in-the-lower-depths#post-655 Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:47:10 +0000 Jon Hooper 655@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Vili, that's a brilliant analysis. I'm fascinated by that composite image and grateful to you for drawing our attention to such a suggestive detail - Matsunaga's kingdom indeed. As for whether Matsunaga is redeemed or not, I'd have to go back to the film in order to put forward anything in the way of a counter argument, so convincing is the evidence you lay forth here. Time is a problem at the moment so I may not be able to give it another look. You may well be right, and the details you mention certainly point to it, but isn't it strange the way a film affects us - I get this strong sense that Matsunaga is redeemed. Perhaps it's in those closing images, in the music. On the emotional level, that's what the film communicates to me, but it may not be what the film is saying at all. Jeremy Quintanilla on "Drunken Angel: Sanada - what's in a name?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanada-whats-in-a-name#post-639 Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:06:27 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 639@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ It would be very interesting to find some possible importance to the character's name. Indeed we would likely need a highly knowledgeable Japanese literary person..... Basically a native Japanese version of Vili. <img src='http://akirakurosawa.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':razz:' class='wp-smiley' /> Great post, but I got nothing to offer. Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: Sanada - what's in a name?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanada-whats-in-a-name#post-637 Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:31:07 +0000 Vili Maunula 637@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ <blockquote>There is another meaning of "Sanda"-the term refers to a martial art-like "Wushu" but an older tradition and implies a bare-handed struggle.</blockquote> That's interesting! Sanada is, indeed, a fighter, although at least in the film he does seem to specialise in missile weapons. <img src='http://akirakurosawa.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=':wink:' class='wp-smiley' /> I haven't come across any comprehensive study of Kurosawa's character names. Too bad that it is something that would probably really require a Japanese person to work on, as a gaijin like myself would most probably not be able to pick up the nuances or any possible historical references. yippee on "Drunken Angel: Sanada - what's in a name?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanada-whats-in-a-name#post-636 Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:18:24 +0000 yippee 636@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ There is another meaning of "Sanda"-the term refers to a martial art-like "Wushu" but an older tradition and implies a bare-handed struggle. I can see Sanada as both a bare-handed fighter, and a would-be savior. I wonder if a comprehensive study of the naming of characters in Kuroswa's work has been done, and if it shows any particular interest in symbolic naming of characters? In Seven Samurai the names have a "feel"- and in "Red Beard" there is a feel, but is there anything corresponding to literary tradition? You know-those questions that we were asked in high school when we read the "Scarlet Letter": " Consider the characters Pearl, Dimmesdale, and Chillingworth. How are their names symbolic?" Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: Sanada - what's in a name?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanada-whats-in-a-name#post-634 Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:53:34 +0000 Vili Maunula 634@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ If you do an internet search for the names Sanada, Sananda or Sanda, you discover that the name is loaded with spiritual meaning (warning: you will also uncover a lot of new age stuff). I have actually been aware of this for around ten years now when one of my favourite artists, Terence Trent D'Arby, adopted the rather grandiose name <a href="http://www.sanandamaitreya.com/" title="Sananda Maitreya">Sananda Maitreya</a>. However, even if I am aware of the loaded nature of Sanada/Sananda/Sanda, it has never become quite clear to me what it in reality stands for. It seems to be some sort of a term for Jesus, or his consciousness, but in a system very different from the Christian mythology. What I have been able to gather is that Sanada is the name given to Jesus in "other realms", Jesus/Sanada being some sort of an enlightened being or healer who travels cyclically to spread... well, whatever enlightened beings and healers spread. Love? Enlightenment? What bothers me is that I have not been able to find a single reliable source to piece together what exactly is going on. When and where did the Sanada myth/cult begin, what exactly is the system behind it, how has it developed? The system seems to be strongly linked to Buddhism, but as far as I can see the sites that promote Sanada are pretty much about what I would term "new age Buddhism", rather than the more traditional strands of Buddhism. It also seems to sometimes connect with the legend that Jesus never died (or died but returned) and lived afterwards in India where he was eventually buried. In other sources, Sanada appears to be some sort of a space man, beaming messages to people who then write them down. You'll find plenty of messages from him if you do a simple Google search. Perhaps my consciousness just isn't wide enough to comprehend what is going on. Any more enlightened members here, or someone more in the know? In the end it may be, and in fact very probably is, a simple coincidence that Kurosawa's angel-like Sanada is named as he is. It is a Japanese name, after all. Although not a very common one, I think? Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: Sanada, an angel at the lower depths" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanada-an-angel-in-the-lower-depths#post-633 Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:36:38 +0000 Vili Maunula 633@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Jon, I (and I'm sure that the others agree) think that you are being far too modest. It is always a thrill to read what you have to say. <blockquote>Jon: I think Richie makes some good points in The Films of Akira Kurosawa about how the doctor seems to miss the result of all his efforts. He assumes the final fight was just another gang fight, but Matsunaga had in fact fought to redeem himself </blockquote> I don't really agree with Richie here. For me, Matsunaga's final fight is anything but heroic or for the liberated self. In fact, it is rather pathetic, and yet another completely wrong decision by him. In fact, I see the situation pretty much like Sanada does. Matsunaga's ultimate downfall is actually preceded by Sanada already declaring that Matsunaga's sacrifice will be for nothing. As Sanada is making his leave to the police and talking to Miyo, he remarks that "Human sacrifice has gone out of style. Japanese make so many pointless sacrifices," only to immediately follow this by shouting to Matsunaga that he should not leave the bed. Which Matsunaga of course does right away. When the nurse protests, he strongly identifies himself with the yakuza: "A yakuza never worries about himself. You really gain face when you put your life on the line." This echoes his earlier worry about losing face when Sanada (who of course couldn't care less about the yakuza code of conduct) declares his intent to go to the police. As he leaves, Matsunaga once more stresses the reasons behind his departure to Miyo: "You don't understand our code of honour". At this point, therefore, it seems clear to me that Matsunaga has not changed a bit. He still strongly identifies himself with the yakuza. He then, of course, goes to the gang boss and finds out what is going on behind the scenes. After this, he is given one last chance to change, this time by the bar girl. Although her voice betrays her true reason for speaking (her love towards Matsunaga), just about everything she says is true and valid -- this would be the perfect point for Matsunaga to leave, the countryside would be a place where he could get better, indeed perhaps she is right even in that he isn't really cut out for being a gangster after all (which is true considering the way he has let the gang boss to use him, as Matsunaga has just found out). If only Matsunaga was man enough to make the decision, and not worry about losing face. But Matsunaga does not reply. He doesn't say no, either. He leaves the bar and takes a flower (still a yakuza) in a scene that mirrors an earlier scene where he took a flower, contemplated change, met Okada and threw the flower (and his change) into the sump. This time, as he is heading towards the sump, it is indirectly again Okada who stops him in his train of thought. The flower girl tells her that she should pay, and (after Matsunaga has again resorted to violence) the shop keeper informs him that the area has been transferred to Okada. Matsunaga has, effectively, been cast out of his gang, and Okada has now taken everything that he had -- his position, his girl, the place where he used to stay. If anything, this would be the point to bow out and leave. He has pretty much been freed by the yakuza, but he does not want that freedom. What he wants instead is revenge, indeed personal revenge against Okada. He doesn't even stop to contemplate it, the violence seems to come naturally. Kurosawa takes us from the flower shop to Okada by giving us two cuts of the sump in between, perhaps to mark the rottenness of Matsunaga's decision, or the source of it. Note also, however, how the second image of the sump slowly fades into Okada playing the guitar, with Okada superimposed on the image of the sump for a good three or four seconds. This is what he has become the king of. This is what they have been fighting to control, and what Matsunaga has now come to avenge. A stinking sump! As a side note, note in fact how this fade actually includes everything that Matsunaga has lost. In addition to his area (the worthless sump), it includes the girl (who betrayed him), and the apartment (that doesn't even belong to him), all masterfully brought together into one single image now commanded by Okada. <img src="http://akirakurosawa.info/images/ofc-drunken_angel/drunken-angel-kingdom.jpg" alt="The Kingdom of Drunken Angel" /> (The Drunken Angel Kingdom, from a poor region-free disc as I cannot capture from the good quality Region 1 Criterion) The fight sequence then follows, and as I have pointed earlier, it is not a heroic fight but one that finishes as a complete farse. The end of that fighting scene still puzzles me, however, as it doesn't seem to fit in with what I have just described to be going on. Why, indeed, is he elevated into "angelhood" by the music and the visuals when he dies? I am not sure, but note, however, that if he is an angel he is a very strange angel in his death -- he is hanging upside down, and with his hand pointing downwards. It is an interesting position, and one that perhaps says quite much about the complexity of Matsunaga's problem. <img src="http://akirakurosawa.info/images/ofc-drunken_angel/drunken-angel-death.jpg" alt="Matsunaga's death" /> (Matsunaga's death, from a poor region-free disc as I cannot capture from the good quality Region 1 Criterion) Ultimately, however, nothing comes out of Matsunaga's death. Absolutely nothing. Save for the bar girl's grief, of course. This is also why I don't see why his ashes should have been paraded around the sump -- apart from, perhaps, to show how the sump eats you up. But the bottom line is that I don't see anything glorifying in his death. Indeed, nowhere do I see what Richie suggests is Matsunaga's "sense of himself". In fact, if anything, Matsunaga has comepletely lost any sense of himself. Throughout the movie, he has been pulled by Sanada at one end and the yakuza at the other. Whenever he tries to take a hold of himself and make a decision, he is distracted by something else, or someone else's pull. The only real decision he makes is to leave Sanada to "save face". As I argued regarding the dream scene, he is too hasty, wants results too quickly, and ultimately too easily resorts to violence to solve his problems. And so, even when the yakuza at the end effectively release him, instead of letting go and rebuilding his self, he resorts to the yakuza violence and goes for his revenge, which does nothing but destroys him. To quote Sanada again, "Human sacrifice has gone out of style. Japanese make so many pointless sacrifices." Matsunaga's "sacrifice", to me, is an epitome of a pointless death. Richie, of course, argues that Matsunaga's act of violence at the end is actually a sign of his going against the yakuza, as it shows that he no longer honours the gang hierarchy or his superiors. I don't think that this is the case, though -- if it were, you would have no internal fighting inside yakuza, and I doubt that this is true. Instead, in my view Matsunaga's act is partly motivated by his personal revenge, and partly by the yakuza code -- remember, "You really gain face when you put your life on the line." Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: the dream" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-the-dream-sequence#post-631 Fri, 20 Jun 2008 06:50:22 +0000 Vili Maunula 631@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I, too, find the scene quite European. It is also one of my favorite scenes in the film, yet I have never really tried to rationalise and put into words what I subconsciously think that the scene communicates. Here's an attempt, though. Jon wrote earlier: <blockquote>The way I interpret it is that the dream provides a commentary on the last third of the picture. Matsunaga will not be able to escape his past - he will not be able to flee the world of the sump or from Okada. His only option, other than to simply become one with the pursuing worse self, to revert back to who he was, is to take a stand, to defeat the gang boss and be redeemed, even if his life cannot be saved. </blockquote> I see the dream sequence very differently. For me, it is not so much a confrontation between Matsunaga's past and future, but rather between who he is and who he has the potential of being. The way I see it, the Matsunaga wearing the black suit is his present self, the smartly dressed gangster whose self/soul is nevertheless totally black. There is hope, however, symbolised by the white scarf that has taken hold of him, his head, his actions. As he runs to the coffin, it is almost as if the scarf would double as his wings, making him an angel. This association is furthered (at least in my mind) by the very "Biblical" sky that we have on the background, and towards which Matsunaga is running. Matsunaga is determined to open the coffin, and employs an axe to do it. It is an act of violence of some sorts, and as the film up to this point has already shown us, violence appears to be the only way in which Matsunaga is able to confront his problems. What Matsunga is doing here is raising the dead. In the coffin is buried his other self, the Matsunaga who needs no fancy clothes or gangster mannerisms to feel at ease with himself. His mistake, however, is the haste and violence with which he wants to release this other Matsunaga. Unlike Sanada, who is ready to deal with issues for as long as they need dealing with (for example the door that refuses to stay open at the very beginning of the film), Matsunaga needs immediate results. And this, of course, is too much too soon. Matsunaga freaks out at the sight of his uncovered other self, and runs from him. His other half, zombie-like in his mannerisms due to having been buried for so long, tries to catch up with him, but Matsunaga wakes up before the dream reaches its conclusion, whatever that conclusion could have been. After waking up, Matsunaga has a very brief moment to contemplate the meaning of the dream before he is interrupted by the shouting coming from the entrance, where Sanada is confronting Okada and his men. Perhaps because Matsunaga therefore has no time to think about the meaning of the dream, the dream itself ends up communicating nothing to him (but remains, of course, important to us as the audience). Jeremy Quintanilla on "Drunken Angel: Some similarities with Rashomon" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-some-similarities-with-rashomon#post-627 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:41:49 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 627@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Oh, yes, Sanada I mean. It's hard keeping all the character straight. Vili Maunula on "Drunken Angel: Some similarities with Rashomon" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-some-similarities-with-rashomon#post-624 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:50:36 +0000 Vili Maunula 624@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ <blockquote>Okada skipping happily down the street and everything is lollypops and unicorns isnt the Okada we have seen.</blockquote> I think you mean Sanada, right? But I do get your point, and would say that there is validity in it, although I personally don't have any really big problems with the ending. I pretty much also agree with yippee, that the real ending of the film is in many ways Matsunaga's death or, as I suggested earlier, the scene that immediately follows with Sanada carrying the eggs. But the narrative seems to demand a coda. Jeremy Quintanilla on "Drunken Angel: Some similarities with Rashomon" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-some-similarities-with-rashomon#post-620 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:41:34 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 620@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ <blockquote>Vili Maunula <a href="http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-some-similarities-with-rashomon#post-553">wrote</a> 1 week ago: Silence The Ending I'm not sure what you mean, Jeremy, by the ending breaking Okada's character. Could elaborate on that? </blockquote> Sorry for the late response, I been apart of my own Rashomon recently. To answer you question-No, not really, I dont know what I mean. Okada skipping happily down the street and everything is lollypops and unicorns isnt the Okada we have seen. Sure he saved a young girls, this is good, but he still has problems and Japan still has problems. Perhaps he simply enjoying a small victory, that is fine, but we should end the film with that. It defeats the purpose of large battle we have witness. The way it is doesn't ruin the film, just cheapens it. Rashomon had excuses, reasons and a need for a happy ending. Drunken Angel needed a happy sorrow, and ending roughly around where we see the bar girl, carrying the ashes of Matsunaga would of been killer. Or even ending as Vili mention is all good too. I like the school girl, she is a great thing for the story, but she could of been concluded earlier. Jeremy Quintanilla on "Drunken Angel: Sanada, an angel at the lower depths" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-sanada-an-angel-in-the-lower-depths#post-619 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:15:40 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 619@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Great post Jon. Sanada plays the demigod, suffering the flaws of being part human and being among those that are nothing but. Its quite powerful really, perhaps why nearly every religion has similar character. Sanada is practically the Jesus of the christian religion. Sanada is a angel of perfection destroyed by those he wishes to save. Jeremy Quintanilla on "Drunken Angel: Jungle Boogie and other music" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-jungle-boogie-and-other-music#post-618 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:02:36 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 618@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Great post Jon, I too find it a bit embarrassing, but I think it the point. We are feeling the embarrassment that a non-drunken Matsunaga should be feeling. I find this scene very good, I quite enjoy the singing and the acting in it. Being a WWI and WWII history buff, I recall reading about Jazz in Japan long ago. And to my knowledge jazz was introduced via the British around the 1910's when they asked for Japan's help in WWI. After WWI and the disappearance of the British, a demand was created and they started to receive jazz from America in the 1920's via various attempt trade agreements. At this time it really took off in Japan. Toward the 1930's with Japan militaristic ways increasing, non-Japanese material was all but gone. After WWII and the return of the American awareness, Jazz took off again as a something modern, something new, something Japan had nothing of. I would say a connection of the boogie with the occupation is made, there are very subtle things that appears Kurosawa made regarding the occupation without showing the occupation. Its role in the film, or its importance if any, I dont really know. Jeremy Quintanilla on "Drunken Angel: the dream" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-the-dream-sequence#post-616 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:40:41 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 616@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I find this scene very weird, its very French/Italian. It something I plan to look at again and give is some proper thought. Jeremy Quintanilla on "Drunken Angel: Shimura vs. Mifune" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-shimura-vs-mifune#post-615 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:37:47 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 615@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I find this very interesting, this area is among a few things I was planning to explore and what I hope to offer this weekend. I just want to say, the times when Shimura's Sanada is throwing stuff at Mifune's Matsunaga is among the greatest bits of cinema I have ever seen. These scenes are a great example of two powerful actors and their characters fighting it out for lead role. To be fair to Kurosawa, perhaps editing and directing mistakes were made, this I cant really answer. I just know when you have two actors to the likes of Shimura and Mifune within the same frame its a miracle to even contain them, much less give them the proper weight that the script my be asking for. There is only a handful of directors that have manage to place two truly powerful actors together and even all those have arguably made mistakes in the attempt. Indeed this battle continues in Seven Samurai, but this film had the room to hold the internal battle, as Drunken Angel did not. Jeremy Quintanilla on "Drunken Angel: the Sorensen documentary" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-the-sorensen-documentary#post-612 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 01:36:06 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 612@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I did enjoy Sorensen's stuff, but I too agree Vili is a bit too simplistic. You make a excellent point in the dress attire of Okada, indeed Yakuza were dressing western long before WWII. Non-traditional clothing became common to high ranking officers as far back as the mid 1800's. Then you have the race the emperor's race to establish a western culture shortly there after. I dont know when the yakuza established, but from written history, it points to dressing different then typical Japanese was part of the culture and befitting of the compound name they use to promote themselves. I also dont see this as a Kurosawa attack on the west, but perhaps some probing and highlighting much like Hooper mentions. yippee on "Drunken Angel: Shimura vs. Mifune" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-shimura-vs-mifune#post-609 Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:40:25 +0000 yippee 609@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Good call, Lewis. I am a big fan of "Kagemusha", and, despite all I've read about how Nakadai was second choice-actually, I think he's wonderful! I'm glad that you feel the same way. It seems to me that "Kagemusha", and Nakadai don't get the respect and attention that they deserve. (I know that Mifune wasn't ever considered. Whatever caused the big break in the Kurosawa-Mifune collaboration, it was an uncrossable chasm. What is sad is that Mifune was filming "Shogun" while "Kagemusha" was being filmed). My Kobayashi comment, let me explain- ( I'll try to keep it short. I know that's not the main thread, here.) it's not evaluative as in "he is better for this director, worse for that director". It is about how incredibly different Nakadai seems under different directors. Jon said (referencing the Nakadai's Kurosawa tranformations): <blockquote> I know what you mean. It seems to go beyond acting style in some parts - it's as if there were some kinds of physical transformation going on.</blockquote> And, even though Kurosawa brings out many Nakadais, there are some he can't see, but that Kobayashi seems to discover. Like, I'm thinking of how handsome Nakadai looks in "Harakiri" and "Kwaidan"-he actually looks like a different person. The angles of his face look different-particularly his eyes. His heroic qualities are less intermixed with that twitchy Nakadai thing that is so up-front with Kurosawa. There is a scene early on in Kobayashi's "Harakiri" with Nakadai and another samurai-and, I've never seen Nakadai less taut and tense or more at ease, and comfortable in his skin. I suppose that means more conventional-but, it is a side we don't see in Kurosawa. So, to try to work this back to the main thread, and how actors are partly shaped by their directors because directors are individuals and individuals see different things in others-maybe it works like this: your friends can see a certain range in who you are, and sometimes that feels limiting, right? I mean, it can also be comforting, sure, because they "know" you. But, then, sometimes it is nice to escape to a new environment-in fact, half the pleasure of travel is the opportunity to reinvent who you are...in a new context, with new friends. Maybe it was nice for Nakadai to work with Kobayashi and Kurosawa and to be able to work a wide range of characters. Nakadai has been very complimetnary about working with both directors. Jon also goes on to muse about the possiblity of Mifune in "Ikiru": <blockquote> I wonder, though, what a more mature Mifune would have done with Ikiru. The fact that it is prehaps Shimura's greatest performance for Kurosawa makes it hard to imagine the film in any other way. Certainly, it would have required a transformation on a par with the one in Record of a Living Being. I'm not sure whether Mifune could have projected the same sense of humility and sadness, but then again there are roles which I would have marked as being beyond him, had I not seen them.</blockquote> Gosh, I wonder what "Ikiru" would have been like with Mifune? I'm beginning to think he could have done it. It would have been such a different film, though. Hey, speaking of which, I looked up the sites for the re-makes of "Sanjuro" and "The Hidden Fortress". Somehow, it saddens me. Are we all replaceable? Lewis Saul on "Drunken Angel: the dream" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-the-dream-sequence#post-608 Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:56:26 +0000 Lewis Saul 608@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Thought I'd post this section from my <a href="http://lewissaul.blogspot.com/2008/02/85-akira-kurosawa-yoidore-tenshi.html">blog</a> here -- see esp. the note about the music in the last paragraph. I find that part of the score absolutely astonishing! ********************************************** The "dream sequence" -- A plain white casket on a beach. The foamy waves wash up all around it. A dissolve to a different angle, from behind. Matsunaga, dressed in black with a white scarf, now appears, running towards the casket with an ax in his hand. Putting his left foot on the casket, he brings down the ax but it never reaches the casket in this cut... Another dissolve to a close-up. Matsunaga is still swinging the ax... Dissolve to a slightly longer shot -- this time we see him hit the casket with the ax... Back to the closer shot ... Back to the longer shot ... Dissolve to a new POV -- the previous cut ended with the ax landing on the coffin. In this shot, we see a "different" Matsunaga, dressed in a regular shirt and pants. He is in the coffin. The top is off, except for two boards, which go flying in each direction, nicely simulating the box being chopped open, by the actions in the end of the last cut. Matsunaga #2 looks up in terror! Dissolve to a close-up of the "other" Matsunaga (#1), with the white scarf, whose eyes are also filled with terror, from the POV of the Matsunaga #2 in the coffin! He reels backwards, leaving only white space... ...coming up from this white space to Matsunaga #1, The timing of the cuts in this sequence is interesting to note: Matsunaga #1 (in black with a white scarf) is running in slow motion on the beach, looking back at Matsunaga #2 who is chasing him [and running much faster than #1!] (about 3 seconds) Dissolve to Matsunaga #2 (from the coffin) (about 1 second)... Dissolve to Matsunaga #1 (about 2 seconds)... Dissolve to Matsunaga #2 (less than 1 second)... Dissolve to Matsunaga #1 (about 2 seconds)... Dissolve to Matsunaga #2 (about 1 second)... Dissolve to Matsunaga #1 (about 4 seconds)... Dissolve to Matsunaga #2 (about 1 second).. Dissolve to #1 for about 8 seconds. Then, in a gorgeous double exposure, #2 appears (ghost-like) frame right -- he looks like he is just inches away from catching his double, #1. What follows is one of Kurosawa's best "special effects" [up to this point, chronologically] -- the above double exposure remains for a few seconds after the next cut begins: Matsunaga is waking up! But as this cut begins, the double exposure still is taking up most of the frame -- you can barely see Matsunaga's face in the very bottom of the frame at first! Then suddenly, you can see him waking up, the double exposure still visible. As in a nightmare, his head goes up and down and the frame turns to black. He sits up, staring directly into the camera. (*)About Hayasaka's music for the past three minutes... After the gangsters remember where they have seen Miyo before, the music becomes very somber and foreboding for just long enough so that we get the idea that Miyo is in danger [and, again, we can see that Kurosawa probably spoke the truth when he implied, as he did in One Wonderful Sunday -- that the best musicians were probably working in the {lucrative black market-controlled} cafes ... this orchestra is -- well, the intonation is a bit off. But we can use our imagination]. The following action between the doctor and gangster required a different dynamic, and the music begins to change. It is subdued for their conversation. An English Horn begins a germ of a melodic cell. The mood is sad, as the doctor is likening Matsunaga's condition to that of the scummy pond ... right before the dream sequence is about to begin -- a soft major cadence; then Hayasaka develops the English Horn germ into a melody, in the minor. The music gets weirder as the gangster chops at his own casket -- and when the beach chase begins, the composer begins manipulating the tape recording of his orchestra (playing it backwards) and combining that with the forwards orchestra -- all coming to a head when Matsunaga wakes up -- on a crashing diminished chord! -- great music for 1948 or any time! [only not performed so well!] Lewis Saul on "Drunken Angel: Shimura vs. Mifune" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/drunken-angel-shimura-vs-mifune#post-607 Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:45:45 +0000 Lewis Saul 607@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ <blockquote>(I am thinking also, how Kobayashi finds something in Nakadai that Kurosawa did not-an heroic and virile quality missing in Kurosawa's Nakadai. Too complex to begin that argument here...another time...) </blockquote> But don't forget that years later, AK used him in what I consider to be one of his greatest acting achievements -- Kagemusha...[true he was 2nd choice, but that's too complex for now ... another time!] <img src='http://akirakurosawa.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':smile:' class='wp-smiley' />