Akira Kurosawa Forums: Recent Posts

Akira Kurosawa Forums: Recent Posts http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Akira Kurosawa Forums: Recent Posts en Sat, 04 Jul 2009 05:31:22 +0000 Ugetsu on "Princess Mononoke" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/princess-mononoke#post-1796 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:53:51 +0000 Ugetsu 1796@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Wow, thanks for that Ryan, I'd no idea those articles existed. Funny thing, it never crossed my mind that Kurosawa and Miyazaki would know each other, but of course their careers did overlap a little. I haven't even started on the Digital Archive, it seems such an intimidating wave of information (and my pathetic few words of Japanese isn't enough for me to read through it). Ryan on "Princess Mononoke" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/princess-mononoke#post-1795 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:20:45 +0000 Ryan 1795@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Ugetsu, ironically I was on the Akira Kurosawa Digital Archive last night while at work and I just clicked on a random link that was in Japanese. The irony is that I clicked on a feature article with Kurosawa discussing how much he liked Princess Mononoke and Hayao Miyazaki (does ot get more ironic - of all the Studio Ghibli films you could have mentioned, you mentioned the one he seemed to like most). It also mentioned My Neighbour Totoro but the whole feature article was in French so I had a tough time reading it (despite having studied French for 5 years back in ther day). To push the irony further, I also happened to stumble across an interview of Hayao Miyazaki and Akira Kurosawa. I think Kurosawa was interviewing Miyazaki which is interesting given that the former is the more renowned director. I think a google search of "akira kurosawa hiyao miyazaki" should bring the interview to the top of the search results. Then again, you may have read these articles before. If you are unaware of them, your estimations may very well be spot on. Ugetsu on "Princess Mononoke" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/princess-mononoke#post-1794 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:36:43 +0000 Ugetsu 1794@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I enjoyed Twilight Samurai a lot, but I found Hidden Blade to be very overwrought - I thought the ending was far too sentimental. Apart from the period thing, it hadn't quite occurred to me that there were Kurosawa similarities, but then again, I wasn't really into Kurosawa so much when I watched it, so I wasn't paying attention in that way. I guess I'd better get one of them on dvd and have another look. Ryan on "Princess Mononoke" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/princess-mononoke#post-1793 Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:28:45 +0000 Ryan 1793@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I think the closest contemporary director to Akira Kurosawa is Yoji Yamada. Twilight Samurai and Hidden Blade feel incredibly similar to Kurosawa films in style, aesthetic and meaning. I was amazed at the similarity. Ugetsu on "Princess Mononoke" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/princess-mononoke#post-1792 Sun, 28 Jun 2009 12:39:32 +0000 Ugetsu 1792@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ There is a nice little <a href="http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/06/22/movies/1194841070597/critics-picks-princess-mononoke.html">overview of Princess Mononoke</a> here by A.O. Scott in the NYTimes. I'm a big fan of Hayao Miyazaki, and Princess Mononoke is, I think, his masterpiece. I don't know if this has ever been a subject of analysis, but when I first saw it I was wondering what sort of influence Kurosawa has on Miyazaki. There are, I think, a number of stylistic similarities - one that comes to mind is the use of slow motion and silences at key moments. To me, the moment when the monster strides across the countryside, flowers blooming at his footfall, while the soundtrack falls to complete silence, is pure Kurosawa. But more fundamentally his philosophical concerns are very similar and his use of popular narrative forms and his mix of Japanese and Western myths and storylines seem very Kurosawa-like. I've often thought about whether any living film maker can be considered a true heir to Kurosawa, in terms of complete technical mastery and broad intellectual scope. Nearly everything I've read on the subject identifies the 1970's American film makers as his heirs in this sense, but nobody mentions any Japanese film makers (probably for the obvious reason that there aren't any even remotely close to him). But if anyone comes close, I think it is modern animators, with Miyazaki to the fore. lawless on "Kagemusha: Fire Without Smoke (or: How to End an Epic)" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-fire-without-smoke-or-how-to-end-an-epic#post-1791 Sat, 27 Jun 2009 06:16:22 +0000 lawless 1791@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ About Kikuchiyo and guns in Seven Samurai - I think one reason they're disgusted with him is that by shooting the gun off he's enabled the bandits to better determine their position. Vili - Good point about the difference between the speed of sound and light. I never took physics. It's just that when watching a movie I expect the visual and sound to coincide, not to be off the way they are. It's disconcerting and counterintuitive. lawless on "Kagemusha: Is it his most reactionary film?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-is-it-his-most-reactionary-film#post-1790 Sat, 27 Jun 2009 06:01:18 +0000 lawless 1790@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I'm here only to say that Coco's post about the nature of samurai and their role in Kurosawa's films of a few days ago is awesome. Great post, Coco, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. Then again, we're both huge Seven Samurai fangirls, so it figures. Jeremy Quintanilla on "Kagemusha: Fire Without Smoke (or: How to End an Epic)" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-fire-without-smoke-or-how-to-end-an-epic#post-1789 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:16:33 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 1789@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I assume you mean bipod, rather then dipod, but yep, that's what they're called, or if they are nothing more then 2 sticks crossed with the gun placed in the pivot point, they are called shooting sticks. Bipods or shooting sticks, however are just for stabilization, and have nothing to do with the actually aiming process, so even that would be rather ineffective. At close proximity you have the chance of hearing anything coming by you, typically however only supersonic rounds, because of the whistling sound created as it compresses the air(the compression of air can too boil the moisture in the air, leaving behind a faint vapor trail-sort like a Matrix(movie) effect. This is only visible from directly in front or behind the bullet.) If there is a hissing sound from a subsonic round I can't say in certain, but giving so many variables that can be involved, most likely so. Having shot subsonic rounds with a suppressor(silencer) I can only say they make no easily heard noise while in the air, but I too never had a round come near my ear. Having too shot supersonic round in a suppressor(thus containing the gun powders concussion) a supersonic round, makes a loud high pitched short-traveling crackling sound, not too unlike lighting. Although without a suppressor, the shooter rarely gets to hear this sound, as the concussion of the gun powder igniting overbears the sound from their point. A short distance from the shooter, a person hears a very quick two stage sound, the first is short and shallow gun powder concussion, and the second slightly elongated high pitch sound is the sound barrier breaking. The untrained ear likely will not hear the two, but have them merge together. From a long distance, the two sounds do in sense become one quick and mild toned, this is too the distance were a person can start to really determine the gun being shot by it's report. Up close to the gun, you hear nothing but your ears ringing, I can't express how loud a gun is when the blast is directed towards you. Indoors, if your ears aren't bleeding, you're lucky. Subsonic rounds are only nowadays found in some pistols, and at the ranges a pistol is used to engage, the shooter and the person being shot at, are far too close to the gun to not have the round's sound be masked by the gun powder igniting, and even with a suppressor(which are nowhere near movie quiet) there is too much noise from the gun's action for it to be heard. Are we still talking about Kagamusha?

If you suggesting, that the sound effects should reflect the different location the movie cuts in a battle. It's very interesting, but I wonder if that would be really weird for the audience, if the cuts were in a action scene-like speed. If it's just a long cut from close to far, then I would expect the sound to be reflected more muffled. Sound however is my weakness, I'm not sure what is wisest. The greatest flaw in many movies is missing the dramatic quality of two people using weapon, to whom have no expertise. The scene mention in Seven Samurai, is indeed a fantastic usage of real people fighting, and so much better then two masters of everything going about. As for the smoke, I can't think of any problems from a logistic standpoint. You could always dump a rubber tyre on a fire

Fabien on "Toho launches Blu-ray series." http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/toho-launches-blu-ray-series#post-1788 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:39:15 +0000 Fabien 1788@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Hello. It seems like a BD section will be needed here. (At least for those who want to keep informed and for the BD watchers – the last not including me yet.) On the 19th of June was <a href="http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20090619_294970.html">announced the launching of a Blu-ray series covering the Toho Akira Kurosawa Masterworks collection</a>. The first volume gives Sugata Sanshiro I & II, The Men Who Tread on the Tiger's Tail, Seven Samurai, Sanjuro, The Bad Sleep Well and Kagemusha (which is currently discussed here). The announcement seems to give japanese subtitles (and wrong aspect ratios) but I'm not confident in automatic translations, whereas a japanese seller (<a href="http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/search3.html?r=any&exact=&q=bluray+kurosawa&order=score&media=&step=20">CDJapan</a>) gives no subtitles and region-free discs. There will probably be two other boxes, as for the DVD collections. I have yet to grab some information on the Kadokawa Blu-ray releases of The Quiet Duel, Ran and Madadayo, which followed the BD release of Rashomon. Do the japanese readers confirm the information from AV Watch article? And what do you think about this Blu-ray boom around Kurosawa? cocoskyavitch on "I Survived a Japanese Game Show" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/i-survived-a-japanese-game-show#post-1787 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:02:34 +0000 cocoskyavitch 1787@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Well, they are back at it-that silly Japanese game show (Majide) that's filmed at Toho, with American contestants. I still get a little thrill when I see the words "Toho" over the gateway and the enormous mural of Seven Samurai on the wall-just an indication of how little folks seem to care anymore, though-in the last installment of the show they only showed a tiny clenched fist of our last samurai in the image: <a href="http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/nobish/1161toho.html" rel="nofollow">http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/nobish/1161toho.html</a> I am flying out to Zurich in an hour. Have a great summer, everyone! Ugetsu on "Kagemusha: Shingen as comedian" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-shbingen-as-comedian#post-1786 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:40:02 +0000 Ugetsu 1786@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ And on a completely irrelevant and left field thought, since I speculated idly before that<a href="http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/seven-samurai-is-hidetora-of-ran-an-alter-ego-of-kambei">Hidetora was the alter ego of</a> Kambei, then maybe the thief is the alter ego of Kikuchiyo.... Ugetsu on "Kagemusha: Shingen as comedian" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-shbingen-as-comedian#post-1785 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:35:51 +0000 Ugetsu 1785@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I did find it hard to get my head around the idea of Kagemusha as a comedy, but I assume that since both Richie (or is it Mellon who wrote that chapter of his book?) and Prince refer to it, it must be based on some fact. It does, however, undermine Richies notion of Kagemusha being overdesigned if Kurosawa was so willing to change the tone. I find it hard to imagine that Kagemusha could have been a Sanjuro-type comedy, slapstick or not, but my interpretation of what Prince and Richie say is that perhaps the intention was that the thief would be more of a Kikuchiyo type individual. Someone bumbling and clownish, who eventually developed a nobility from his contact with the more noble aspects of bushido. I could imagine a few of the scenes played more for laughs that way - in particular that great scene where instead of solemnly trotting past the soldiers under the gaze of the spies, he gallops his horse and rouses his men to cheers, before ending up bouncing along the dirt. Maybe it would have been more like the scene in Seven Samurai whether Kikuchiyo tries to tame the horse and ends up falling off to general hilarity. cocoskyavitch on "Kagemusha: Shingen as comedian" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-shbingen-as-comedian#post-1784 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:23:36 +0000 cocoskyavitch 1784@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Vili said, <blockquote>If the film was intended to employ more slapstick comedy, could it be that those scenes were dropped, explaining why we now see so little of the thief getting accustomed to his role as the double? </blockquote> Wow. I had a hard time seeing how comedy would "work" in the film. I accept it as this very serious meditiation on person/persona and the nature of identity-but Vili, you have allowed me to see how and where it might have worked. And, I imagine it would have been quite a different film-but that it could have been quite a good one. I personally am so very pleased that Tatsuya Nakadai was the replacement choice-there is a roundness and fullness to his being on screen first in Seven Samurai as a walk-through ronin, then, here and in Ran at the conclusion of Kurosawa's career. I also think Mifune could have been magnificent. I am with Ryan and Ugetsu-and think that Katsu would not have made the film superior in any way. It would have been different, yes, and could have been quite good, but it does not hold that it would necessarily have been superior! How could such a judgement be made? Vili Maunula on "Kagemusha: Shingen as comedian" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-shbingen-as-comedian#post-1783 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:55:13 +0000 Vili Maunula 1783@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ You raise an interesting point, Ryan. If the film was intended to employ more slapstick comedy, could it be that those scenes were dropped, explaining why we now see so little of the thief getting accustomed to his role as the double? Certainly, those are the kind of situations that would have offered ample room for physical comedy. Having not seen the original script, it's difficult to say either way. Vili Maunula on "Kagemusha: Fire Without Smoke (or: How to End an Epic)" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-fire-without-smoke-or-how-to-end-an-epic#post-1782 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 09:13:51 +0000 Vili Maunula 1782@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ <blockquote>Vili: I'll reply in more detail tomorrow. </blockquote> So, "tomorrow" turned into "next week", but here I finally am reconstructing what I meant to communicate. Only, I can't quite remember what it is that I wanted to say a week ago.

Well, I'll reply in bits and pieces. <blockquote>Jeremy: The distance that Takeda supposedly was when he was hit(same as tree), even with some incredibly accurate pre-measurement, there is no way to be certain you would hit anything at all(it was dark).</blockquote> Indeed. Note also that while the method used by the sniper may give him the height in which to hold the weapon and possibly even its vertical angle, I can see no way in which he can determine the horizontal angle in the dark. Although the window through which he shoots is not very wide, there is still ample room for him to shoot either left or right of his target. Actually, if you have looked at the drawings Kurosawa made for the film, you'll notice that when he was doing the illustrations, the method used by the sniper was slightly different. Instead of the rope and stone mechanism, he employed what looks like a two-legged tripod (dipod?). If you take a look at the "Image: Kurosawa's Continuity" feature (it should be on both the Fox and Criterion releases), you should see the drawing at around the 8 minute mark. I wanted to make a screenshot of this but thanks to copy protection and a broken computer, that won't happen. <blockquote>Jeremy: What I did find very annoying, and what disconnected me from the movie was the sound effects.</blockquote> I think that you are absolutely right. Indeed, unlike I first thought it really isn't the smoke or the range that bothers me and makes me think of westerns, but the sound effects. The effect really is comical and less serious, and totally out of place. <blockquote>Jeremy: To my knowledge the rifles of Kagamusha's time period were not capable of launching a projectile faster then the speed of sound. So minus the deep cannon like sound of the gun powder igniting, the bullet itself is largely silent. So none of that "Pshhooo" should be had, nor any high pitched ricochet giving the bullet was big ball of lead.</blockquote> I'm not sure if I understand you, guns or the physics involved correctly, but the way I thought it works is that with a supersonic object pretty much all you should get is a loud bang (which you hear after the bullet has already passed your point), while subsonic projectiles like musket bullets give that hissing sound as they move towards and away from your point of observation. I do agree about the high pitched ricochet sound, though. This actually made me think about a problem that has to do with the observer's (our) position. Since we as the audience actually aren't in the same physical space where the action takes place, how do laws of physics apply to us here? Supposedly our position is always the position of the camera, but when you start to think about it, and this is going way off-topic now, you actually run into theoretically interesting (although probably practically uninteresting) paradoxes considering that the camera can instantly move from one place to another, unlike anything in the natural world. <blockquote>Jeremy: I do wonder if a movie ever produced real-life gun works if the audience would deem it fake or stupid. Theatrical too, it doesn't look good, if the hero picks up a gun, and can't hit a damn thing, as would most likely happen giving the typical situations.</blockquote> I think that Kurosawa actually did this, only with swords. I'm thinking of the woodcutter's second account of what happened in the forest in Rashomon. That's what I would imagine a realistic sword fight to look like between amateurs. <blockquote>Ugetsu: I like the idea of the battle obscured by smoke, but I think it would have been very difficult to portray.</blockquote> I'm not actually sure if it is so. While Jeremy probably knows more about the logistics involved in setting up a scene like that, there are at least two scenes in Kagemusha that utilise smoke somewhat similarly. We have it once when Shingen is buried into the lake, and then a second time in the sequence that I think is the battle of Takatenjin, where at one point an army moves into view from camera right, emerging from a dissipating smoke. <blockquote>Ugetsu: By the way, in the second from last shot, where Nakadai staggers into the river after being shot, is it my imagination but is his face the colour of the rotting corpse in the jar (and the warrior in his dream)?</blockquote> That's well spotted! I went through the scenes and you are right, the make-up is very similar. <blockquote>Coco: we all know the Criterion version is longer than the original international release</blockquote> Just a bit of a comment/correction here: the Criterion version is the original Japanese release, while the shorter international release was a later cut. <blockquote>Jeremy: If Takeda did die from a gun shot, it would be most likely due to it creating infection, and not directly from the gun itself. After all even into the American Civil war, the great majority of deaths were result of infection from gun shot, rather then the actually gun shot.</blockquote> That's a very good point, Jeremy! <blockquote>lawless: In Seven Samurai the timing of the sound effects for the guns is always off, at least in the copy I have; if I remember correctly the sound effect comes after the person has been shot instead of before.</blockquote> But isn't this only realistic? Light travels faster than sound, therefore we should see the shot before we hear it. It does of course depend on where we as observers are situated in relation with the action. See also my earlier comments. <blockquote>Coco: I am thinking of Seven Samurai when Kikuchiyo steals the gun and shoots it as he runs back to the samurai/farmer defensive point. They are disgusted that he left his post to steal the gun, and, maybe disgusted at his using it? Just a thought.</blockquote> That's an interesting idea! Ryan on "Kagemusha: Shingen as comedian" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-shbingen-as-comedian#post-1781 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:19:07 +0000 Ryan 1781@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I don't think a comedy would have worked as well as the film we have now. Judging by the aesthetics and colourfulness of the film, as well as the fact that it was made in the late 1970's (and released in 1980), I envision a comedic Kagemusha as a slapstick Kagemusha. Now I don't know about you, but slapstick comedy, to me, reeks of stereotypical actions which are just so commonplace in both film and tv that we've seen 99% of it all before. Therefore, it is not funny. Then again, I'm going by what I would predict a comedic Kagemusha to be on the basis of the current look of the film and when it was released. But this prediction of mine (Kagemusha being largely a slapstick comedy were it to become a comedy) also has some depth in the fact that Kagemusha was heavily funded by 20th Century Fox (a Western studio). Now, slapstick comedy is a universal comedy in that it does not require language or speech to result in laughter. Human beings, after all, share a common instinct in terms of comedic physical idiosyncrasies. Making Kagemusha largely a slapstick comedy then would give it wide appeal to both Japanese and Western audiences alike. This would also appease both 20th Century Fox and Toho studios. This would also potentially help box office sales globally (which was probably a big concern for Kurosawa given that he previously tried to commit suicide after the failure of Dodesukaden and also struggled with obtaining finance from studios). Additionally, Kurosawa's affection for Western silent cinema makes it safe to assume that he enjoyed Western silent comedies, or at least would have been influenced by them while making Kagemusha a comedy. Anyway enough of my theory that Kagemusha would largely become a slapstick comedy film had the original actor have stayed on to do the film. It's irrelevant, completely hypothetical and full of discrepancies. Nevertheless my intention was to state that I hate slapstick comedy and, had Kagemusha become that, I would have disliked the result very much. I say that with near certainty, despite it being a Kurosawa product and the fact that the film was even been made. If I've confused you, I apologise. To be fair, I've confused myself. That's what night work'll do to you. But basically, I completely disagree with Ritchie's comments, or whoever's comments, that Kagemusha would have been far superior with Katsu in the role. I think it would have been a travesty. I think Nakadai is severely underrated as an actor, be it in Kagemusha or any of his films. All of his performances tend to be overshadowed by other actors, yet maybe that is the sign of a truly great actor; the act of subtlety; so real that it goes unnoticed. But alas, I digress. Vili Maunula on "Kagemusha: Is it his most reactionary film?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-is-it-his-most-reactionary-film#post-1780 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 07:54:07 +0000 Vili Maunula 1780@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I would approach Shingen's place in the film from a slightly different angle. While it is true that he is revered in the film by both his political enemies and those closest to him, note that the film doesn't have any villains as such. There is no antagonist to Shingen's protagonist. For a film that is "distanced" and "cold", Kagemusha actually has a surprisingly total lack of unlikeable characters. You could even call it a very warm and optimistic film in this sense. The world may be complicated, chaotic and insecure, but the characters inhabiting it are all portrayed as very humane and respectful of one another. Shingen's son is probably the least likeable character, but even there the film makes it possible for us to understand his feelings and even accept his actions. And while Shingen may be the most highly regarded of the characters in the story, I think that this is not so much because of what he is or was, but more so because he is dead, and it is his clan's tragedy that we are witnessing. Narratively, the story needs him to be the central piece around which everything else revolves, and also to be something that we can believe in, or otherwise the whole thing would collapse. But I think that Kagemusha also makes it possible for us to understand that Shingen was not all saintly. He himself acknowledges that he expelled his own father, took his place by force and caused the deaths of many. We feel, I think, the grief and regret that Shingen's son has for never quite being treated as a proper son. But the point is, like Jeremy said, that these things had to be done, for whatever reason. The way I currently see it, Kagemusha celebrates the positive forces in us -- things like respect, honour, compassion -- while showing that we are all flawed, simply because the world in which we live is flawed. I hesitate to call the world of Kagemusha deterministic, although you could make a case for it considering Shingen's fulfilled prophecy about the destruction of the clan, but what I'm trying to say is that there is something like a role everyone plays to a certain extent, forced on us by the environment. Maybe what you do is not as important as how you do it. And this is why the destruction of the Takeda clan at the end makes me sad, but it doesn't make me angry. Just like the three generals, I accept that this is where it has come to. There may have been other alternatives at some point, but the fact is that those alternatives did not materialise. The role of the Takeda is to perish. The role of the others is to carry on. So, to answer the question posed in the title of this thread: No, I don't think of Kagemusha as reactionary. Vili Maunula on "Kagemusha: Shingen as comedian" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-shbingen-as-comedian#post-1779 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 06:53:09 +0000 Vili Maunula 1779@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ <blockquote>Ugetsu: apologies for 'Shbingen' error, slipping fingers!

</blockquote> I see no such mistake.

I wonder whether the suggestion that Kagemusha would have been more of a comedy with Katsu is actually based on any hard facts. Can they have changed the tone of the film so completely during the time it took to wait for Nakadai to take the role? Shooting had, after all, already begun when Katsu left. With Kurosawa known for casting against type, I have no problem imagining him wanting a more serious performance also from Katsu. I'm not saying that Katsu wouldn't have brought a lighter side to the film, but I'm a bit sceptical about the alleged impact of the actor change. Or, is there something that I am forgetting about? I have personally grown quite fond of Nakadai's performance in Kagemusha, and cannot really see why he is getting such lackluster responses from critics. Similarly, I think it's Richie (or Galbraith?) who suggests that Mifune would have been a more natural replacement, but I'm not so sure about that, either. Nakadai brings a certain level of theatricality to both Kagemusha and Ran which I quite enjoy, especially the latter. I personally think that Nakadai's range is also much better than Mifune's, which I think is crucial when you need to be both a noble and a thief. Ugetsu on "Kagemusha: Shingen as comedian" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-shbingen-as-comedian#post-1778 Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:44:48 +0000 Ugetsu 1778@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ ... and apologies for 'Shbingen' error, slipping fingers!

Ugetsu on "Kagemusha: Shingen as comedian" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-shbingen-as-comedian#post-1777 Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:43:23 +0000 Ugetsu 1777@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ So much of the commentary I've read on Kagemusha seems to consider Nakadai as a poor choice for the film - the implication being that if Katsu had not been fired, it would have been a superior film. Richie (or was it Mellon who wrote that part of his book?) seems to imply that Katsu had it in him to do a great dramatic part, while Prince seems to imply that the casting of Nakadai forced AK into downgrading the comedy in the original story. He does make a good case that the scene where the thief opens the great jar, expecting a treasure, but finding a rotting body, was originally to be played very much for laughs. I do think another actor might have made the thief more sympathetic, more human, although he might have made Shingen less believable as a charismatic leader. I'm in two minds about this - I like Nakadai's performance - in fact, I think he was much better in this than in Ran. I think his command of his physical movements is wonderful, he expresses so much in his walk and how he moves. But I do think he lacks a bit of the devilishness the character required, a sort of Jack Nicholson swagger. I don't know a lot about Katsu, but I am intrigued at the idea of what a physical comedian could have done with the role. I do think it could have resulted in a very different film, one where his transformation and growth into a 'shadow' became the core of the film, rather than just one element. But perhaps this isn't what Kurosawa wanted? Of course, Mifune would have been perfect as both buffoonish thief and charismatic leader

Ugetsu on "Kagemusha: Is it his most reactionary film?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-is-it-his-most-reactionary-film#post-1776 Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:26:15 +0000 Ugetsu 1776@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ When I was referring to Prince, I was thinking of his book, but I've just finished watching his commentary on the Criterion version, and it explains his view much better. I find his interpretation pretty convincing and really interesting - I had no idea how much of the film was based on historic fact. And he has a lot of interesting things to say about the battle scenes too. But while I don't disagree with what Coco and Jeremy say, I still feel a little taken aback at the almost mystic level of respect given to Shengen in the story. What I admire so much in AK's films is that in nearly every film he uses is exploring his own beliefs, he is never (or at least, rarely) preaching at us, the viewer. But I find Kagemusha oddly lacking in this interior dialogue. cocoskyavitch on "Kagemusha: Fire Without Smoke (or: How to End an Epic)" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-fire-without-smoke-or-how-to-end-an-epic#post-1775 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:38:53 +0000 cocoskyavitch 1775@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ <blockquote>Now any idiot could be a killer. </blockquote> Right on, lawless. I am thinking of Seven Samurai when Kikuchiyo steals the gun and shoots it as he runs back to the samurai/farmer defensive point. They are disgusted that he left his post to steal the gun, and, maybe disgusted at his using it? Just a thought. His utter glee in shooting the gun! They think he really is an idiot with so much to learn! cocoskyavitch on "Kagemusha: Is it his most reactionary film?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-is-it-his-most-reactionary-film#post-1774 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:33:39 +0000 cocoskyavitch 1774@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Maybe you are right...Jeremy, Kobayashi did do The Human Condition trilogy (I've not seen it, but hope to). Jeremy Quintanilla on "Kagemusha and the Chinese Landscape Painting" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-and-the-chinese-landscape-painting#post-1773 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 03:07:14 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 1773@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I've been meaning to say something smart, so to impress everyone with my superior intellect

But, since that isn't working out too well. I'll just say: I really like what you wrote Coco, even if I lack the comprehension to respond. Jeremy Quintanilla on "Kagemusha: Is it his most reactionary film?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-is-it-his-most-reactionary-film#post-1772 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 02:48:53 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 1772@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I think what we see is the new double coming to the realization that ruthlessness is only seen by the timid, Men that bear no responsibilities for others, men that make no stand, men that have no scars, tend to see those that hold to beliefs, or purpose as cruel, abusive. And so the double in this case refers to Shingen simply a mass murder. It's not until the double, feels the burden and understands his importance in maintaining the livelihood of his clan, not until the double starts to be fond of his people, and Shingen's grandson. That he begins to change, he begins to see the vital importance of being strong in a purpose for the betterment of those he oversees. The double starts to see the respect worthiness of a man, that acts ruthlessly not specifically for self gain, but for the gain, peace and continuation of those he rules over. For any man that would act timidly upon those that wish to destruct the people he oversees, has only gone to commit a great crime upon the people, as such acts have always ensured destruction. So the double, slowly changes his perception of Shingen, from mass murder, to highly respected, up to the end where the double becomes so fond of Shingen, he becomes him. I'm not so sure Kurosawa really change attitudes, but simply ended the movie at a different point then others. We do see the mass killing of the clan, for ultimately pointless purposes. And Kurosawa often points to the ultimate pointlessness of war and violence in the end. All Kurosawa is doing here, is reflecting that although war and violence is pointless in the end, perhaps even self-defeating. There is honor in those that are willing to bear the burden of war for the sake of great purpose and duty, both regardless of it pointless in the grand scale. All I see is Kurosawa paying a bit of respect to great man, without getting blinded into the political aspects of it all. And why fault a man, that is holds firm to himself through right or wrong, good or bad, to the point in which he is fondly referred to as a mountain. . . And speaking of Kobayashi, I dont think him much different then Kurosawa other then approach. In Harakiri(haven't seen in a while, hope I got the right movie in mind)Kobayahsi is pointing to the stupidity of blind obedience, often seen in samurai, to which he uses to reflect the same effect the Japanese people had during WWII militaristic Japan. Both Kurosawa and Kobayashi, point out that humans should contain the ability to not fall into tragic events, but rise above them. The difference is perhaps that Kobayashi thought that fighting for peace, is not peace but continuation of violence, while Kurosawa points that although often self-defeating, fighting for peace is the only way to ensure it. This may reflect that Kobayashi wasn't fond of Japan entering WWII, nor America uneven infliction of violence to solve the issue, thus making America perhaps worse then Japan. Kurosawa however, seem to be somewhat neutral in how America went about solving the issue of WWII. I've confused myself now, if anything make sense, it's by pure accident. cocoskyavitch on "Kagemusha and the Chinese Landscape Painting" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-and-the-chinese-landscape-painting#post-1771 Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:27:10 +0000 cocoskyavitch 1771@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ UGESTU! Your quote : <blockquote>...national myths which become central to a nation's sense of self</blockquote> is so friggin' right on. I hate to bring up Luigi Barzini again, but he is a big believer in that phenomenon of national character formed by these foundation myths...and, it was a useful idea with which to arm myself for thinking about national identities. Image plays a big role. We cannot think of the Pope without also thinking of his robes, or St. Peter's. I always get a vision of the mitre and crozier. Images=power and authority, and dress and monuments are symbols that convery meaning. Most righteous thinking, Ugetsu! I have a friend who teaches a course, "Power, Place and Image in Florence and Rome"-and you can just guess what that's about eh? cocoskyavitch on "Kagemusha: Is it his most reactionary film?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-is-it-his-most-reactionary-film#post-1770 Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:03:35 +0000 cocoskyavitch 1770@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ SAMURAI IS A STATE OF BEING Ugestu says, <blockquote>...quite reactionary politics - the notion that the older samurai clans were in some sense morally superior to the more westernised forces against them. </blockquote> I don't think there's anything East/West about it all, actually. I think it's all about symbols. <blockquote>...the notion that the older samurai clans were in some sense morally superior </blockquote> EXACTLY! Isn't Kurosawa almost always on about this? He's usually quite a throwback kinda guy about how "in the old days we used to have to walk ten miles in the snow without shoes one way, and you liked it". (Just kidding-little SNL joke, there). But, seriously, he really is about how the individual with a strong personal code of morality is a superior being to those without. I think we can call this character the samurai character, even in modern society. And, I would dare to trace this back to Kurosawa's dad. Yep. I said it! The redemption of Kikuchiyo in Seven Samurai is that he admired the moral code of the samurai, and he died acting as a samurai- And, hey, the only warlords that show up in Kurosawa are the ronin bandits or the admirable ones in Kagemusha, or those who fell from grace via lust or some twisted reason. Oh, I get it...people think Ran is a better film than Kagemusha because the corruption of the samurai ideals via the central character bring his entire family to ruin. Ah, wait- does this story also play in Kagemusha? Shingen cannot promote his son because of who the mother is...so promotes the gransdson instead, and causes a rift that ultimately causes the clan's destruction-the mass leap into the arms of death at the end...? Kagemusha as dry run for Ran, indeed. Kurosawa never did a film like Harakiri, for example, that criticized the samurai way scathingly-at its root and soul as a bad thing-a sick institution with horrible outcomes. Kobayashi was really unflinching! Kurosawa seems, instead, to always think that the true samurai way was good. Perhaps I am wrong, but perhaps a "samurai" is a state of moral rectitude-even if you are a guy in the ladie's shoe business, or a guy who was a thief, ready for the cross until you were hired as a double. Or maybe you were even a farmer, or an alcoholic doctor, or a doctor with syphillis, or a red bearded doctor, or a ronin who takes the name Sanjuro, or a woman with not regrets for her youth, who chooses a man of high morals-despite the consequences, or an old woman who honors the loss and the devastation of the atom bomb, or even a woodcutter who adopts a foundling child, but "samurai" is a place you learn to get to, once you can clearly see your choices, and developmentally learn to make the morally "straight" choice...and, since this is about a learning process, in large part, the samurai-in-training makes many poor choices, and is set many trials until he/she can prove his/her worth. All Kurosawa films are samurai films. That's why I like them! Wait, Ugetsu, what was the question? I seem to have gotten into some frenetic typing/thinking tangent. cocoskyavitch on "Kagemusha and the Chinese Landscape Painting" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-and-the-chinese-landscape-painting#post-1769 Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:25:58 +0000 cocoskyavitch 1769@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Art and Age might well be worth looking at. I remember once reading in an article (relevant to the career arc of aged painters) that something happened in the later career-the artist's late work exhibited a kind of acquiesence to the universal. It wasn't phrased that way in the article (oh brain cells, where are you when I need you?) but the sentiment was similar- stating that a kind of "big view' was achieved, and a "letting go" of details of personality and specificity in favor of an overarching "feel" or "mood". Ugetsu said, <blockquote>They seem to me to be entirely single minded in conception, totally dedicated to his vision of cinema and art.</blockquote> Yup. Like you, Ugetsu, the late works get better and better for me with each viewing. I think they are not immediately as engaging on a personal, close sense, but get richer and deeper and more intimate with repeated viewing. I begin to think extremely highly of Kagemusha- each viewing raises it a bit, in my estimation. Little side note: I kept being haunted by the figure of Shingen in the urn-and specifically, by his green color, like wet jade-and here's the thing- It's not at all a fabrication, I have seen it! In the Eastern Qing tombs, I believe it is the tomb of the Qianlong Emperor, deep under the earth, with a carved lintel then huge guardian figures of the directions carved into the walls behind-the one to the righthand going in, goggle-eyed with a pipa and armor-the chain links each glowing brilliant deep green in the subterranean light-the face dyed the same color, the hands, the pipa-all the color of wet jade. It is this tomb and that image that comes to mind, and the interior chamber with the massive stone sarcophagus and the buddhist symbols carved on the barrel vaulting side walls. Yes, it is real. lawless on "Kagemusha: Fire Without Smoke (or: How to End an Epic)" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-fire-without-smoke-or-how-to-end-an-epic#post-1768 Sun, 21 Jun 2009 23:50:38 +0000 lawless 1768@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I agree with Ugetsu that Kurosawa portrayed guns less realistically than he did traditional Japanese weapons. In Seven Samurai the timing of the sound effects for the guns is always off, at least in the copy I have; if I remember correctly the sound effect comes after the person has been shot instead of before. And for the reasons adduced guns tend to be used by the villains. Not only it this a signal of the decay of traditional Japanese (read: samurai) values but of the accessibility of lethal weaponry without the need to study and perfect one's use of the weapon as was true with swords. Now any idiot could be a killer. Ugetsu on "Kagemusha and the Chinese Landscape Painting" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-and-the-chinese-landscape-painting#post-1767 Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:46:05 +0000 Ugetsu 1767@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ I'm a bit late catching up with my reading and watching of Kagemusha, but I must admit I'm very attracted to Princes notion of the film being an allegory for the importance of art and illusion as central to the construction of any state - the Takeda clan survive by maintaining the myth of Shengens life and only collapses when the deception is revealed. All the military strategies in the world are worthless when the central mystique of power is lost. Hopefully I'll get some time to do more reading on this - a critic here in Ireland called Fintan O'Toole has written quite eloquently in the past about the importance of the world of art - especially theater and literature - in creating national myths which become central a nations sense of self. I do think that if there is a 'key' to be found in understanding Kagemusha, it is in this idea. Vili: <blockquote>Personally, I am quite a big fan of the late works. I think Prince is absolutely right about the fact that we have here a unique and rare example of a late period from an artistic genius. And while Kurosawa's last works may not be among his very greatest (except for Ran, if you ask me), the truly interesting thing is how different they actually are to his earlier works. After all, how many other artists out there have not only continued working well beyond their 80th birthday, but also gone to reinvent themselves? Well, you mentioned Titian, there's perhaps one example.</blockquote> This is something I'm only just trying to get my head about, maybe sometime in the future we can have a good discussion about this. I think like a lot of fans I've found his later works to be a little too austere, too difficult to penetrate, so its tempting to fall back on the notion that they are inferior to his great works of the 1950's. But i find that even more than his earlier films they repay repeated viewings and all of them grow on me over time, including Madadayo, which initially I didn't like at all. I like the quote from the New York Times <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/20/movies/film-kurosawa-s-ran.html?scp=8&sq=ran&st=cse">Vincent Canby</a> in relation to Ran that: <blockquote>It's also meant as praise when I say that ''Ran'' is very much an old man's movie - Kurosawa is 75 years old. (Hideo Oguni and Masato Ide, who collaborated with Kurosawa on the screenplay, are, respectively, 81 and 65.) Here is a film by a man whose art now stands outside time and fashion.</blockquote> I think describing the films from Kagemusha to Madadayo as 'outside time and fashion' pretty much nails it for me. Kurosawa had gone beyond any sense of making films to satisfy the audience or critics. They seem to me to be entirely single minded in conception, totally dedicated to his vision of cinema and art. This is what makes them so foreboding, but also so rewarding. Ugetsu on "Kagemusha: Is it his most reactionary film?" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-is-it-his-most-reactionary-film#post-1766 Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:25:15 +0000 Ugetsu 1766@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ For some odd reason, the last time I watched Kagemusha the film it most reminded me of was the Edward Zwik/Tom Cruise effort <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0325710/">The Last Samurai</a>. Yes, I know, not exactly in the same class. I was trying to work out what they have in common (apart from the obvious period setting) that reminded me, and it occurred to me that it was the quite reactionary politics - the notion that the older samurai clans were in some sense morally superior to the more westernised forces against them. Shingen is portrayed as a great man, worthy of undying respect and loyalty from his men, and of course he even earns it from his own double, a man who we see in the very first scene accusing him of being a mass murderer. This seems a very different view of traditional clan lords from other AK films. In Seven Samurai, Throne of Blood and Ran, among others, there is never any ambiguity in the portrayal of warlords. They may be fine warriors, and noble in their own narrow worldview, but they are invariably shown as self deluding (as in Ran) or glorified gangsters (ToB, etc). From what I can see of his character, apart from a deeper level of self knowledge compared to other Kurosawa warlords, there is little real difference between him and the others. But in complete contrast to all other AK films I can think of, he is portrayed, even in death, as a sympathetic character, someone deserving of absolute respect. Prince writes about this, but he seems to attribute this to Kurosawa's emphasis on the allegorical elements of the film - the need to portray Shingen as a man worthy of his followers devotion for narrative purposes. I have to say I'm not completely convinced by Princes explanation - there seems to be something in the film that is very different and contradictory to the overall thrust of AK's film. For the first time we see him sympathizing with men of power, even the more ruthless aspects of the use and abuse of power. So am I right in seeing Kagemusha as something of a political outlier in his work - when for whatever reason he grew more conservative and nationalistic in his outlook? Perhaps his fascination with the period and the story for once overtook his more humanistic concerns? cocoskyavitch on "Kagemusha: Fire Without Smoke (or: How to End an Epic)" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-fire-without-smoke-or-how-to-end-an-epic#post-1765 Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:52:37 +0000 cocoskyavitch 1765@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Jeremy, if you had made Kagemusha, I think the guns would probably have been portrayed differently. There is a rhapsodic quality to your discussion-you find the logic, power and beauty possible in guns, and you are knowledgeable about the physics involved. Your discussion has the poetry of the famous Harold Edgerton images of an apple being pierced/exploded by a bullet: <a href="http://web.mit.edu/edgerton/">http://web.mit.edu/edgerton/</a> Jeremy Quintanilla on "Kagemusha: Fire Without Smoke (or: How to End an Epic)" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-fire-without-smoke-or-how-to-end-an-epic#post-1764 Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:48:50 +0000 Jeremy Quintanilla 1764@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Ugetsu, maybe still the rate of fire was too fast, rotating volleys of fire was common practice since the invention of gun in warfare. And I do believe it was this Battle of Nagashino, were Japan introduced European methods of fighting. The only thing I do know, that while I'm sure like modern guns, muskets too had different sounds based on powder and gun model. They at large are best described as a deep and short "boom", similar to a cannon. This opposed to the more higher decibel elongated percussion of modern rifles, largely from high gas pressure in the gun, and the bullet cracking the sound barrier. I think Coco, and I might of mentioned this before, but Kurosawa while perhaps falsely, smartly betrayed guns as the weapon of the enemy, solely that the gun does remove any honor. From what was once wars of skill, bravery, and honor, in which the victor, was truly the victor. Turns into the winner being the one with the largest numbers, or greatest equipped. It would be hard to correctly show the greatness of the main characters in AK films, if they simply used a gun to which any idiot is largely equal to any great person. This doesnt really apply in Kagamusha, but Kurosawa did however play this well in Sanjuro and to some degree Stray Dog, were we see brute force is no match for intelligence, and the gun while surely decaying honor at mass, will never overtake individual honor. And sure we see that Kagamusha might of shown guns unrealistically, but their character importance is brilliantly done for the most part. And this in films such as AK's is far more important then pure truth. Also I was speaking to some more knowledgeable in weapons of the age, so according to them. It was very rare to engage an enemy further then about 50 yards. As past this, both accuracy, and ability to penetrate armor was greatly reduced. Most didnt think it unrealistic that a hit could occur from a sniper, from what I guess was less then 75 yards were Takeda sat. However the likelihood of a shot in the dark hitting the intended target was of course very slim but within possibility. (The tree thing they laughed at) Also the bullet wound by today standards would be rather minor if hit within the chest from that distance. According to them, the bullet characteristics after impacting armor and then flesh, resulted in very little shock to the organs, or penetration into the body, due to deformation of the bullet, and it's size and relatively slow speed allowed the bullet to very quick lose it's energy. However the bullets size did create large sized if although shallow wounds, in which death via bleed out was most common. And while Takeda didn't bleed out, medical science was virtually non-existed, and all minor wounds were major. If Takeda did die from a gun shot, it would be most likely due to it creating infection, and not directly from the gun itself. After all even into the American Civil war, the great majority of deaths were result of infection from gun shot, rather then the actually gun shot. This starts to get irrelevant to discussion, but nevertheless, I think the death of real-life Takeda, via sniper is the less popular theory anyways, so I'd just tossed that in there. Vili Maunula on "Kagemusha: Fire Without Smoke (or: How to End an Epic)" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-fire-without-smoke-or-how-to-end-an-epic#post-1763 Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:03:46 +0000 Vili Maunula 1763@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Thanks for the replies! Really interesting stuff. So interesting in fact that I just spent about an hour typing a reply to a few points raised here. However, when I wanted to take some screenshots to illustrate a few things, my computer (which, as I have mentioned, is falling apart) decided to crash. As I had not bothered to save the post anywhere and was simply typing into the reply box here, everything was lost. My own fault, really. Anyway, it's quite late already and since I've been ill and everything, I don't want to start rewriting the post now. I'll reply in more detail tomorrow. cocoskyavitch on "Kagemusha: Fire Without Smoke (or: How to End an Epic)" http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/topic/kagemusha-fire-without-smoke-or-how-to-end-an-epic#post-1762 Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:11:10 +0000 cocoskyavitch 1762@http://akirakurosawa.info/forums/ Hey, Vili, Jeremy, Ugetsu, such good and interesting observations! I can both visualize an effective "smoke" ending to Kagemusha, and simultaneously feel extremely satisfied with the ending as it is. In another post Ryan suggests it is too long-all those horses struggling-(and we all know the Criterion version is longer than the original international release) but, I dig it, and watch with fascination. (Teruyo Nogami tells us the horses snored very loudly, and even when awakened after, and led off the field, they were walking and snoring!) Guns are a "character" and plot point in Kurosawa films! From the stolen gun of Stray Dog to the guns of Kagemusha, guns play as large a role (even when not seen) as some of the other human characters. And, mostly, that role is just plain "badness". At the very least guns are a big problem when stolen as in Stray Dog, and in Seven Samurai guns are used by the bad guys, not the heroes. The gun is the weapon of choice for Kurosawa's villains-and, wrapped up in all of that is the loss of the samurai way. Ugetsu said, " <blockquote>By the way, in the second from last shot, where Nakadai staggers into the river after being shot, is it my imagination but is his face the colour of the rotting corpse in the jar (and the warrior in his dream)?"</blockquote> I certainly hope so! (By the way, turning the color of deep jade, and sitting in perpetuity in a bundled position in your armor-is really spooky to contemplate, but, wow, that's a dang cool image! Enough to give you technicolor scary dreams for sure!)